I know that. I was giving a basic reason why it's silly to deny it IS that, in my opinion.

True. Well, what is your stance on it all?

Dammit!!! I knew MUATRA would become the central theme of this thread sooner or later.

*In my best "Jan" impersonation*

MUATRA, MUATRA, MUATRA!

*Skips away whistling the smurf theme song.*

What's with you and vintage cartoons! I'm beginning to think you sit on your couch with a bag of pot and a tub of sherbet and just have a field day!

MUATRA of course got thrown into this. That's what he banished Azura with!

Probably the same as yours. But maybe not.

I think Vehk was pretty justified in fornicating Azura's face (forgive that phrase; I'd say what I'd want to say, but it would get censored) with what I see as the mythic personification of his masculinity because Azura was essentially being a b*tch with the Nerevarine prophecies, in my eyes. It was a bad attempt to try to revert worship back to herself because she is a mere attention [censored], and I say bad attempt because, to some degree, people still hold Vehk in high esteem into the 5th era and, well, she did get a mythic dong shoved into her face.

She cause ALL that strife, ALL that suffering so she could get worshippers, but this is if you accept the idea that she kinda set up Ur to be able to tap the Heart. All this done to the people she "loved," nonetheless. And she (indirectly) killed who could be seen as Vehk's best friends.

I won't really say whether or not she's "good" or "evil" overall, but concerning TES III and the Trial...she was a [censored]. And hey, she's apparently fine; it ain't like she can get him back now. Heh.

I'd respond to that but my connection is overdue, and a Three Stooges marathon, (with Curly or course), is getting ready to start on the tube. So I'll have to get back to you on that.

*Sherbert....pffffht. Doesn't he know pistachio almond is the finest of the flavors?*



Sorry don't agree here. I don't see the whole, getting her worshipers back as her motivation. Not saying she didn't want them back, just saying the Tribunal swore an oath under her name, they broke the oath, and she, by her nature, had to respond. And while we can point to many good things the Tribunal did under their tenure as MW's gods, the fact of the matter is they could not contain Ur indefinitely. The Nerevarine had to be, and if he had to be then so did Ayem's madness and Seht's murder. It all comes from their actions of free will to tap the heart. No use blaming Azura for acting like Azura.

I still don't understand where you guys come up with Muatra being a [censored]. It sounds pretty Freudian to me.

Then again, Freud would probably say that the St. Louis Arch is a phallic symbol.


I doubt it, partly because madness is not Azura's sphere, and she wasn't in league with Dagoth Ur. The persecution of the Nerevarine Cult would be more the fault of Berel Sala and Almalexia than anyone else. In addition, Vivec decided that it would be best for them to lose their powers in order to destroy Dagoth Ur. Azura did help bring it along, but if Dagoth Ur wasn't destroyed, Akulakhan would eventually be finished and without an Underking to save the day, Tamriel would be neck deep in trouble.

Have you read the Sermons?

My love is accidentally shaped like a spear.
...
They took their spears out and compared them. Vivec bit new words onto the King of [censored]'s so that it might give more than ruin to the uninitiated. This has since become a forbidden ritual, though people still practice it in secret.
...
But Vivec made of his spear a more terrible thing, from a secret he had bitten off from the King of [censored]. And so he sent Molag Bal tumbling into the crack of the biters and swore forever that he would not deem the King beautiful ever again.

Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA, which is Milk Taker, and even the Chimeri mystics knew his fury. Anyone struck by Vivec at this time turned barren and withered into bone shapes. The path of bones became a sentence for the stars to read, and the heavens have never known children since. Vivec hunted down the biters one by one, and all their progeny, and he killed them all by means of the Nine Apertures, and the wise still hide theirs from Muatra.


SERIOUSLY?????


I mean it says it right there that it's the Milk Taker, it has the essence of CHIM within it, as it was taken from Molag Bal, whom had 6 arms during the banquet, which is to say one arm for each walking path. A scarab of condolences. MUATRA is also what Vivec uses to turn his children into symbolic entities. There would be really nothing without MUATRA, which is the extension of Vivec's six-love-murder-lie-annotate nature. He's beguiling, yet a classy gentleman all at once. A Poet-Thief, a stealer of words and swords and divinity.

uhhh.... you did read about the pomegranate banquet in the sermons right? While it didn't say in such simple terms what's what... it's pretty obvious what Molag Bal and Vivec were doing when they were *ahem* comparing spears.


EDIT: beaten to the punch by the Roaming Nomad in a matter of seconds

It's not a symbol. It's a [censored] [censored]. Go do a google image search until it blows the symbols right out the back of your head.

It could be referring to spears; there's nothing that says that it isn't. Not to mention that there's a statue of him wielding an actual spear. Not to mention that elsewhere it able to assume the form of a dwarf, so it's probably not attached to him.

Ok man, because 'My love' can refer to anything, right? And the statue is symbolic of him saying '[censored] YOU LORKHAN!' He's piercing the Shalk (scarab look-alike) with a spear, which is MUATRA, which if you look at my edited post, you'll see is the changinf formation, and at the base of the statue are Coda flowers. Landfall ends with Coda. Witht he diminishing of divinity.

Not to mention MK himself has said it was his dike before, too. :rolleyes:

And no, it's not attached to him. IT'S A MAGICAL dike FOR THE LOVE OF TALOS, MAN!!!!

It seems a lot more more symbolic than literal


Given that the picture of "City-Face" is literally a city-face, I'd say Muatra is probably literally a spear.

No it doesn't

It is symbolic, but it's literal as well. It's symbolic of Vivec himself. Go see my edited post and you'll know what I mean.

paws, what should I be Google imaging now?

Yes it does. Besides, who are you to tell me what I perceive?


Well, that picture of City-Face literally had a city for a face, then I'd say that Muatra could literally be a spear and symbolically a [censored].

But it's not. It's literally Vivec's manhood, and symbolically it's his world-ender.

And given the lack of evidence for what's literal and what's symbolic, I'd say we are at am impasse.

And given the lack of you showing anything that goes against what I pulled straight from the Sermons other than 'City-Face was literally a city for a face' WHICH, by the way, that Sermon clearly states, so it's not like it was trying to hint towards any symbolizing there, and given the fact that MK himself stated it, makes this derailing discussion quite moot in the eyes of anyone with any sense of civility, I must say that you either agree with me, for go try reasoning with someone who doesn't know A THING about lore.

Not really. What did you perceive when the author told you the right answer? You don't really get to interpret that.

And given that City-face probably wasn't the only literal thing in the Sermons,, and that MK has also mentioned Muatra as being a spear in the Sermons, we are still at an impasse.


And what did you perceive when you decided what must be the "right" answer, given MK has written both? You don't really get to interperet that.

:rofl:

Thank you so much. You have no idea how this made my day.

This talking past each other is going to have to stop in order for the thread to continue.

Unless the Lessons of Vivec are to be understood as the ravings of someone lost in an alternative, incoherent reality, it is necessary to accept that they include many things that are not meant to be taken at face value, even things that have a clear face-value interpretation. So there is no foundation for the argument that because Muatra is called a spear and has attributes of a spear, it must be a spear and nothing else. Even if Freud did say, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Ad hominem argument and mere deriding of another member's opinion or knowledge is not welcome on any of these forums and is especially out of place here.

Well, considering that we're never going to agree on exactly what Muatra is or isn't, and continuing to argue about it won't end well (for us or the thread), I guess this is as good of time as any to actually get back on topic to whether Azura deserved Vivec's banishment, however it was done.

As I said before, Azura's sphere doesn't include madness. And it was Dagoth Ur that led to Vivec deciding that it was time for their divinity to end.

I still feel like it was moreso selfish rather than justified. i won't deny it was justified to an extent, but I feel it was moreso malevolent. I view Azura as someone who kinda indirectly pushes things along. The presence of the Nerevarine and the events involved thereafter his return made Ayem flip out and murder Seht, who himself didn't really give a damn about anything outside his machines, which is no doubt influenced by his divinity, in my opinion; even then, the fact of the matter remains that she killed him. The elimination of Ur just gives a believable political reason to remove the enchantments from the Heart, which also effectively screws the Tribunal.

And even with this said, if it wasn't selfish motivation--if it was retribution on her mind--why weren't the other Princes pissed off? Mephala didn't seem to give a damn, as did Boethiah. The oath plays a role of course, but to me it just apears to be a hurt ego, and the ego just happens to be that of a God who hates to have her ego bruised.

In the end, this is just my opinion though on my own interpretation of relevant crap. Maybe it's totally irrelevant. Maybe deeming a god's motivations justified or selfish is as silly as putting a god on trial.