I can't see the defeat of Dagoth Ur as being just a pretext for demolishing the Tribunal (or even sabotaging a Tower). To be a deity with an all-consuming need to be adored, you need followers willing and able to adore you. Dagoth Ur and his blighters would never have made suitably adoring subjects, and they would have wiped out "her" once-and-future followers. The defeat of Dagoth Ur and the wrecking of Akulakhan were at least as necessary as the destruction of the Tribunal, I think.

I recon you guysa hit one major mail on the head earlier with Duality ... so if I were to pursue the line I was looking at I would have to fit that in.

Also what you have been touching on in the past few pages re the Nerevarine makes a lot of sense to me. So I would have to note that Azura was the guiding force that enabled the Nerevarine to save Vec's butt from Dagoth Ur - and maybe the whole world - as stated Akulakhan. I don't see any room for play acting there as Dagoth Ur would have done worse than Muatra Vivec, the other Tribunal members and the Dunmer as a whole before going on to do the same to the entire world according to the Emperor.

I seem to remember that it was written that Azura cursed the Dunmer to become that which they are now so inordinately proud of - black elves but I cannot remember if Azura herself claimed that herself. And that part holds a certain illogicality - she really should have 'cursed' the Dwemer - though I'm sure it is said that she did.

But looking at it all I have to wonder if all these guys would rather have her appear to claim responsibility for much of this rather than consider the possibility that the means of that curse was Dagoth Ur's doing. Or that it was all a result of Dagoth Ur's actions. But we still have no explanation about how he got his connection to the Heart - as far as I am aware so something is missing.

I don't feel that Dagoth Ur was her pawn either, but he certainly did mess a lot of things up - but we cannot establish his earlier fundamental motives.

In all this one thing seems consitent - that something about the Heart or the use of the Heart in this way corrupts or twists things and could go further in explaining the in-fighting in the Tribunal. Sure it will be claimed that the arrival of the Nerevarine caused Almalexia to go bingobongo but I feel that's an excuse rather than the reason.

But now the Heart is gone and seemingly Vivec has gained CHIMP - so would Vivec still be controlled by the Heart = can the Heart be blamed further for his actions?

If you said to me that the self-confessed, ever-perverse Vivec publicly Muatred Azura because he could not resist her charms then that is far more believable. But I still do not like the assertion that that Azura was made helpless and could not have defended herself. That is far too convenient.

So it comes back to a personal sense of what fits. I could accept this as a late Sermon on Vivec's part - as usual open to interpretation and such - just not as a 'hard and fast' event. Because there is too much there that does not fit - and that includes the assertion that Vivec would want revenge. Azura left all open for the Nerevarine to decide and did not interfere outside the basic support as we well know.

It really sounds more like the action of a being imitating Vivec and twisting his aims and feelings to produce something innappropriate.

Even if it is true, why do you guys support this as an act instigated by Vivec - could it not be Sheogorath's path?

What I was saying was simply that it would look really suspect if the Nerevarine was sent just to destroy the enchantments the Heart when there wasn't even a reason to do so. Ur's existence somewhat complicatetes things: he makes the Tribunal rely on an instrument of Azura to complete a task that will help Morrowind in a way they couldn't, but this will also screw the Tribunal in the process, so it isn't like they can really stop him. One of the reasons Vivec hindered the Incarnates' progress is so that they could have "the proper tendencies of a hero" to defeat Ur; if they die, then 1. they weren't, or couldn't become, the Nerevarine, and 2. they damn sure couldn't defeat Ur.

Perhaps it wasn't to merely regain worshippers, but maybe it was just vengeance Azura wanted.

I wonder if Azura did lose real worshipers? To shadow your logic in a different situation: If they continue to serve her they are hers, if they go to another they were never really hers in the first place?

I feel her real people are the Daedra that serve her in Oblivion and those who see her as she is - or if you will, are in tune with the things she represents - those would not be attracted by the less tasteful side of the Tribunal.

You mention destroy the Heart - or did you mean free the Heart? Free the Heart is an Azura thing - so I do not really see Azura's base motivation as revenge. Mephala would have wanted to assassinate it and Boethiah to smash it to bits.

What Azura and Vivec decided on was to alter the tonal architecture that had been built into or around the Heart so that it ceased to be bound ... I wonder where it has gone?

Fixed my "destroy the heart" statement. Sorry. I slip up on that sometimes.

I can't see Almalexia going nuts because of Azura, not when that seems more like Sheogorath's work. And even if she approved and Nerevar simply died of his injuries, I don't think it would eventually change Vivec's choice to end their divinity to stop Dagoth Ur and Akulakhan. Perhaps Azura simply knew that that was how it was to end, and decided to help bring it along (after all, the Nerevarine was key to Vivec's plan).

:facepalm:

It does support my idea that Azura let most of it play itself out.

That dosen't change the fact that sheo had Nothing at all to do with the events in morrowind.

Almalexia mentioned that Sotha Sil had entered Sheogorath's realm. It was a lie, but it seemed to affirm that such madness would be Sheogorath's doing, seeing as how that the only other reason for madness the Dunmer have is lack of faith and falling away from the Temple, which can't really apply to Almalexia.

I suppose, to actually answer the question posed in the original post... I don't think Azura deserved it. We can speculate and interpret her actions as manipulative, but Vivec is just as manipulative, so that's just a case of the pot calling the kettle black. :shrug:

Aside from the backing that some devs and ex-devs did the Trials, I'd just as soon as dismiss the Trials as a somewhat lore un-friendly fan fic: Vivec acts like a total psycho, and Azura speaks in babbling nonsensical phrases. So, Vivec orchestrates some grand scheme to set up a fake "trial" so he can show off his powers in some sort of bizarre revenge-trip? Doesn't he have better things to do? Or, has he turned into a total basket-case?

So, what has Azura done that was "bad"?
- she sent some guys to kill some people for some sort of betrayal or something (don't recall the source of this). Like Dagon hasn't killed people in his time. :rolleyes:
- she makes the Dunmer look different. Is that really bad? They seem pleased by their appearance nowadays.

What's Vivec done that's "bad"?
- broke his oath to Nerevar
- murdered Nerevar
- didn't destroy the heart (which would have ended Ur's powers over Red Mountain and such); in other words, Vivec traded godhood for the wellbeing of the inhabitants of Vvardenfell (and possibly all of Tamriel).

I'm not saying Azura is good, and I'm not saying Vivec is bad. I'm just saying it doesn't seem like Azura's done a whole lot of harm that she "deserves" to be treated the way Vivec treats her in the Trials.

Azura did what gods always do, meddle in the affairs of mortals. She chose the wrong set of mortals and was meddled with herself.

I agree about Azura. But when Vivec became a god, he believed that Dagoth Ur was dead for good. And by the time he learns that Dagoth Ur can only be stopped by destroying the enchantments, AND realized that it was the only way, Dagoth Ur had Sunder and Keening, and they didn't have the resources to do the plan. It would seem that Azura may have known that this would be how it would play out, that Vivec would have to give up his godhood willingly.

And although it is rarely said, Azura did end the ashstorms in Mournhold.

Through web spazzing, I forgot to put in my response to your earlier statement regarding this:

I personally feel this is thinking too hard about Daedric influence. Dagon isn't involved with EVERY single thing that is destroyed; Boethiah isn't involved in EVERY single conspiracy that is cooked up; Bal isn't involved in EVERY single [censored]. They merely ALLOW things to happen that are more abstract and changing than things like air or time, things that can't really be TRULY static in existence.

She's a Daedric Prince. Unlike "gods" of yore (in mythology on Earth), she has no need of Mundus, nor its inhabitants. That she involves herself at all is interesting and certainly spices life up a little. But Peryite is also a 'god', but he doesn't concern himself with Nirn at all. Some Daedric Princes poke at the Mundus a little, but it seems that, overall, they don't have much influence personally. In other words, they have to motivate Nirnians to do some action or other. Of course, there is Dagon, who likes to appear in person and stomp on things. But Azura seems to limit herself to just talking and occassionally appearing to the people in the Mundus. She probably has better things to do than plot people's downfalls.

At least, that's how it seems to me. :shrug:

This is mostly how I view the crap. In my posts I HAVE noted that she isn't fully "bad," both in the Red Mountain events and just overall. I feel like she would have been fine if she had just quit while she had the Heart enchantments removed.

You mean sitting down and staring into the void becuase all of her minions are non-sentient and therefor she has nothing to do?

Wait, wait, wait, if you listen to one thing we say on this, listen the factual part. She actively seeks worshipers and requires their devotion. She takes action against those who threaten it.

I am still waiting to see evidence of this. I've heard the speculation, and opinion about this, but I haven't seen the "facts".

Is there anything in any literature whatsoever that says a Daedric Prince needs worshippers? Or that they get power from worshippers? I'm sure they find it interesting to have little silly mortals do what the ask, but I doubt that worshippers are necessary.


They are probably sentient. Just because Oblivion demonizes Dremora as mindless monsters doesn't mean that's what all daedra are like. Just because we don't really know what the lesser daedra do, and what Daedric Princes do when not doing something in the Mundus doesn't mean that they are doing nothing. In other words, they could be doing stuff that we have no clue about.

http://imperial-library.info/mwbooks/overviewgods.shtml

http://imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Aurbis_Myth


Azura...yeah the [censored] had it comin', sho nuff.

Just a little something:

http://imperial-library.info/book_daedra/

Of course the Daedra don't spend every moment thinking about ways to screw/play with the people of Nirn, but they do seem to like them a lot. Are the mortals needed. Probably not. But I think the Daedra find them very amusing to say the least.

Edit:



I was under the impression that the original Aedra, (Earth Bones), died and what took their place was, for the most part, a myth echo of what the original Earth Bones were, brought about by the mortal's perception of the world around them. Meaning the Aedra that are worshipped now are just a culmination of the mortal's perception of the original Aedra. Though I don't know how this relates to Daedra............never mind.

That's non-official lore, correct? It also FAILS for failing to make any distinguishment between Aedra and Daedra. :shakehead: No references to anything concrete, just a bunch of BS in my opinion. I'm surprised it's in the Imperial Library site; my high high regard for that site has slipped a few notches. :mellow: EDIT: apparently I didn't read the title correctly. At any rate, I think I'll personally mark this book as "the fictional author had no clue what he was talking about", a type of book that occassionally gets thrown at us to make us remember that authors of books can be biased and uninformed.



Hmm, interesting! :thumbsup:

:huh: That's official lore...it's in Morrowind...

Who said anything about needing worshipers?