edit: Eh, screw it. I'm through. Rather not bog this thread down with unnecessary posts. I apologize to all for wasted time on a miniscule subject.

Ala Luagar's post on here a while ago.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_18.shtml



Fair enough. I wasn't either. I was being sarcastic.



I agree.

I am quite a newbie to all this but I find it so fascinating I simply must comment.

As far as I can tell all parties in this are justified in their actions according to their own view points so there is no right/good or wrong/evil in this, except perhaps all parties conspiring (though not together) against Nerevar who is the only true victim and whose justice we should be concerned about.

As for how to reconcile the two contrary realities that Vivec presents in his statements I can only speculate but I would say the Tribunal taking their divinity did indeed change reality but somehow the conflict between their reality and the original reality was resolved by some kind of compromise of the two. The Tribunal can remake reality but they may not have the power to undo changes made by other divine beings (ie Deadra) so somehow the two were meshed or otherwise made to co-exist in the same "real" reality.

Of course I am most likely wrong and am only speaking on knowledge I've been able to glem from the more experienced and distinguished members here and my own personal thoughts on the sometimes confusing and murky lore provided by Bethesda.

Back to the original ? "Did Azura deserve Vivec's banishment?"

As has been said I think it's a matter of perception. Some may see it as justified, others not. Can the same be said of Azura's punishment of the Chimeri?

I think when looking at both one thing should not be forgotten, and that is choice. I think Azura, as are all Daedra, are bound by certain limits, and as such their choices are limited. I think most of the time they act according to their nature. Meaning Azura acted out of her nature. It wasn't out of spite, unless of course spite is a part of her sphere, it was what she should do under the circumstances given her nature. Again whether this is good or evil is a matter of perspective. I see it as neither. It is what it is and nothing more.

On the other hand Vivec and the Tribunal can transcend their nature and choose any path they want. Vivec chose to punish Azura. Now he may have been acting on his nature as well, but he could choose not to. This to me is the clear difference between the two. Again whether it was right or not is up to each person to come to terms with on their own.

I just thought that the distinction between one who has freewill while the other is, to a certain extent, a bondservant to their sphere should be taken into account as this discussion continues.

But then again......what the hell do I know???

Yes, Vehk has great wisdom and he shares some of it with the PC.


Azura is mean, no wisdom and the ring she gave me was crap :flame:
Also i just really like vehk and really hate azura(Probably an after affect of reading his dialouge iver and over agian for books i'll be writing in a comeing mod)so my opinion is biased.

I know that, and it's a iffy statement I said, yet Vehk refers to Seht as his "murder-brother" I see that as telling that they're all related in it, even if Vehk was the player who did the deed.

Vivec & Co. swore an oath to Azura. Then they broke their promise. Doesn't matter if it was to her or to someone else: they broke their word. So, she punished them.

"What?" you say, "All the Chimer, too? That isn't fair!" Well, Vivec & co. were the leaders; they should have thought about how their actions would affect their people as a whole: for example, how letting Ur 'get away' would affect Vvardenfell for millenia to come.

You might look at is as: Azura punished those who strayed from their worship of her. Is that really any different than the Tribunal? After all, the Tribunal punishes heretics, worshippers of the House of Troubles, and they look unfavorably on the Imperial Cult divines. Unlike the Tribunal Temple, Azura didn't kill anyone; she just made them look ghoulish. And, after several millenia, do the Dunmer even care anymore what they look like? Heck, if they changed back to Chimer they'd probably be horrified to look like "snooty Altmer."

On a less serious note, Maybe Vivec is just pissed because he's stuck half-Chimer, half-Dunmer; while it does lend a mystique to him, it must be tough looking at Almalexia's Chimer complexion all the time.

Anyway, seeking revenge on Azura makes it seem as though he thought he didn't deserve to be punished for breaking his oath to Azura (and Nerevar). In that case, if he could go back in time and do it all over again, he'd do the exact same thing: murder his friend and use the profane tools.

Punishing her won't turn the Dunmer back to their pretty Chimer hue. Punishing her doesn't accomplish anything other than giving him a power-trip.

He might have punished her to regain worshippers and faith to augment his power: "Oh, look at me! I'm V'Vehk, I can mouth-[censored] Daedric Princes that I trick into appearing before me for a trial (hah! As if I'm sorry I murdered Nerevar!)! WORSHIP ME! LOVE ME! ME ME MEMEMEMEMEME!"

Tsk tsk, where d oyu people get these idea about "Teh bwig bwad boogey vehk". Many of the things you say about vehk are speculation.

If i didn;t know better i'd think you were a vehk-hater but those don't exist anymore i drove them off with nasty comments.

Azura started the war, then she was supplanted she and punished the Tribuhnal. They accepted the punishment and suffered for it, then she decided that wasn't enough and had her agents destroy them. Vehk lost two siblings, not just his godhood, which he understood was only his on loan. Vengeance was necessary personally, culturally, spiritually, it all came together. Azura fulfilled her role, as she was present at the dawn and dusk of the epoch.

QFT

You pretty much said what i was too lazy to type.

I was wondering about that; in the Trial, Vivec mentioned something about a sister. Could you point me in the direction of the text or ingame dialog about this?

I'm not saying Vehk is a bad boogy man, or that Azura is the patron saint of holiness. Neither am I saying Vehk is awesome or that Azura is the epitomy of evil. They both have their faults, and neither are beings I'd want to involve my life in -- they are too destructive and don't feel accountable for their actions. :shrug:

EDIT: oh, the siblings. Do you mean Almalexia and Sotha Sil? Well, Almalexia was going bonkers anyway because of the fading power from not making trips to the Heart to get their godhood fix (as in, she was going bonkers because she felt inadequate that her power wasn't awesome enough). Almalexia killed Sotha Sil, not Azura. Oh, yes, the Nerevarine precipitated those actions; But he/she also cleaned up Vivec & Co.'s mess, that is, Dagoth Ur and The Blight.

His sister is AYEM.

And azura directly indlunced the deaths, i'm too lazy(as previusly said) to tell you so paw prints can fill you in.

It was a joint effort. Where would Nerevar have been without Vivec? (Say anything about the speedrun and I throw something sharp at your head) The Sermons were written as a guide for his quest, after all. Vivec accepted his punishment. He cooperated with the effort that removed his godhood and destroyed his siblings (yes, the other Triunes) in a very graceful way. Then he took revenge because, you know, that's just what you do when you're a Dunmer and the [censored] just really, really needs a spanking regardless of the justice of it. (The mafia would understand.) My point is, it brought things to a close, and everyone acted in character. With gods as characters, that's justice.

:yuck: Some sister; have you read http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:2920%2C_Morning_Star_(v1) in the 2920 series?

Yeah, yeah, I know: sister as in a sibling in the family godhood...


:lol: Yeah, okay. :thumbsup:

But his dialog in the Trial makes it sound like he's having a temper-tantrum.

But he's laughing his ass off. It's a triumphant arrogance tantrum, and it's dead-sixy.

Yes i have, I find it strange that yuor suprised by that, its what you can expect from the gang(The tribuanol)

I took "sister" to be in more of a figurative sense than a literal one, which may explain that. After all, they all ultimately used the tools to turn themselves into gods, so they definitely have something in common between them. It may not be blood, but magic can run just as deep. :shrug:

Hmm...I'd call it more of an indirect influence. I mean, Almalexia went all bat[censored] (with all the "I'M THE GOD! I'M THE GOD!" ranting and raving) largely as a result of her own pathological desire to hold onto the power she gained through her own actions. She killed Sotha Sil, and then the Nerevarine killed her in self-defense. Azura's share of the blame for this is indirect at best.

Seeing as how the only way to defeat Dagoth Ur (thus cleaning up the mess the Tribunal wasn't able to handle) was to sever their original connection to the godhood, losing Ayem and Seht was really the best-case scenario. The Tribunal were murderers, traitors, and oath-breakers and suffered the consequences for their actions. Vivec even admitted to the Nerevarine that what they did was wrong.

While it is true that Azura could be said to be spiteful in holding a grudge against them, this wasn't entirely an issue of pure jealousy on her part (they did break an oath and murder their king, after all). Vivec's banishment wasn't a moral act of justice, but an amoral act of revenge. There are no "good guys" here, but at least Azura was actually able to DO something about Dagoth Ur (even if it was indirect).

While he could have said what they did was wrong, it can also be intercepted as a precariousness evil. A whim to have beheld. You see, if we weren't told otherwise, we'd never now becuase history changed to fit the whim. The Dragon Broke at Red Mountain the moment Vivec and Sotha Sil and Almalexia became gods. This is why Nerevar proclaims 'Love is under your will only.' to Vivec. It is his will of right. It was made for him, just so. And he has a willing rule over it. All three of them do, actually. Just like how in Christianity, people follow the Bible becuase if they don't they go to this horrible place called Hell, and they fear it. Fear is the key. His will is fear, and in that he finds solitude. 'Love me no more, and the Lie Rock will come crashing down.' Searing winds, unbalanced magistrate, and the revival of one of Vivec's children? No thanks. Not to mention it equals the beginning of Landfall. So what do people do? They irritate themselves with this thought that it's not an evil plan, it's a good one. They can't complain, because they really don't know that the people they worship used to be mortals just like them.

But who's to say the line drawn between good and evil is really right? They're not existent in TES lore. It's all a matter of preference. So, what I'm getting at is that Vivec will say things that mean both the thing you want to hear, and the thing you mistrust ultimately...the truth from the mouth of the horse...er...more like Guar in this case. You could call it a timely provision, becuase Vivec doesn't REALLY think that he did was wrong. But he doesn't want the reincarnation of the person he wronged to think that. To shed a little light on it all, too, do remember that Almalexia didn't go mad from power, or lack thereof, but from her own thoughts. She became secluded, and no longer offered grace to the people who loved her. But she knew they'd love no matter what. Perhaps the waining of the Heart did that to her, but you can do the Tribunal MQ before Morrowind's, and thus it can be any given approximation of time from when the Heart was weakening (which I doubt that's true. I think Dagoth Ur was just getting smarter and learning how to draw out more power) to when you, the PC, free it and it's power diminishes slowly from the plane of Mundus.

But what if it was just in her nature to be cautious, overly-zealous, and just a plain old nut? Just like it was Sotha Sil's nature to be solitary and mingle with cosmic affairs, and it is Vivec's to deceive. 'To be otherwise was to betray his nature.'. Azura could have been a pawn to herself all along. I mean it really makes me wonder, if she knew that Vivec knew that she was only pulling at strings. Maybe you had her blessing. Maybe you were the Incarnate, maybe you were just lucky. It's possible, but in the end Vivec did what he did to her because it's in his nature. He hopped on her tower, pierced it, and user her tower as a base to jump from, to other aspiring heights and it probably helped him sustain himself evermore. CHIM was no longer an issue, but keeping himself in divinity in the face of himself was. Only so much power can be withheld from the vessel that needs it. Or maybe Azura just tightened the knot ever tighter, closer around Vivec's and the Temple's necks, by letting him pierce her. Maybe she took with her a part of Vivec that she happened to slip into her soul as her mouth was promptly [censored]. We know she got back into her realm by the time of the Oblivion Crisis, but do we know if Vivec ever got back onto his pedestal? Nope. He is probably just gone, though, laughing at the world as he holds it up like a small sliver of glass.

Hmm...I kinda sorta understood parts of that. And I almost understood the parts I didn't kinda sorta understand.

Is it the chunk of text that's getting to you, or do you want me to explain more?

We can't forget that Azura was a god to her people before the Tribunal came about. It could also be said that she did it merely in an attempt to try to divert worship back to herself. The Prophecies could also be seen as merely an act of mending her wounded pride from people who defied her; she could just be pissed that someone would dare defy her as a god. Crap it's insinuated that she even erased the Dwemer for essentially pissing her off and making her look bad (to us, we know the truth about their fate, but there is still a small possibility that they pissed her off)!

Vivec and Azura both loved Morrowind, but it appears to me that Azura probably wanted nothing more than worshippers, while Vivec truly has love for perhaps the whole of Mundus; I don't really see why that love would need to be confined only to Morrowind, but I could be wrong.

And Azura was as indirect in getting Ur gone as she was for killing Seht and Ayem, if not moreso in the former. Recall that Voryn gained godhood through separate means than the Tribunal and at a later date. To the wise, it could be insinuated that she was heavily involved in that event, one way or another. And if THAT'S true, then that's worse than having a symbolic [censored] jabbed into your mouth for the deaths of your friends, seeing as that would make you responsible for the prolonged suffering of your people, I see the lesser of two evils as the face fornication.

But, OF COURSE, this is just my opinion.

Very valid points, but this is lacking. He doesn't have a love for all of Mundus, becuase he IS all of Mundus. He just does whatever the [censored] he wants. Just remember that. He's just not an ass about it, like the local jock at your high school. He's got more than a thousand years of wisdom on his side, and a particularly cheeky God who makes him look even better not on his side. He is very secretive and forgoing about himself having his way with the known universe. Like how you can plan on killing a bug, but if the bug knows you're coming, it'll just fly away and be back to bother you in a few moments. You need to wait, act on instinct and not impulse, and then you can finally swat that fly away, going on living in this huge world that was infinitely-more-gigantic to that fly. But it'll never know the difference.

Ain't that the same thing??

Considering what Vivec is, well...it is.