Not really. I took it in the sense that you were saying love as the kind of 'let me heal anyone and give money and build houses and give hugs and kisses to all the little butterflies in the lily fields'.

If you mean Love, then...well, that's a totally different story. That's where speculation becomes a big omelet of trying to find the needle in the hay stack.

*Chuckle* :rofl:

Oh. That's my fault then. Apologies for the confusion.

I personally think that even if the Daedra (in this case Azura) are mostly evil and unreliable, her motives were good, so I am in favor of Azura in this little piece of lore.

Welcome ter' the lore-forums.

Fishy stick? http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Fishystick.jpg

Any segments to backup exactly why she was in the frame of 'her motives were good'?

Good to one is bane to another. See, "Vampires".

I think this is the first time I've every posted in the Lore section simply because I've never felt I understood things well enough to really comment on them. But I've spent quite a bit of time reading up on the events at Red Mountain and think I can offer -some- (very likely useless) thoughts.

Morrowind does seem to go a long way to make Azura a sympathetic character - her guidance of the Incarnate to be her agent to stop Dagoth Ur ("cleaning up the Tribunal's mess"), the subtly implied idea that the Tribunal could not handle godhood ("no mortal should take the mantle of godhood upon themselves") and that the deaths of Almalexia and Sotha Sil were releases from suffering, the various books describing Azura as an affectionate mother-figure of the Dunmer etc. I am thus a little confused by the portrayal of Azura in the "Trial". Her apparent motivations (can anyone ever truly know a Daedric Lords motivations) in TESIII appear to be the release (if not quite foregiveness) of the Tribunal from their suffering as well as the salvation of "her people" from Dagoth Ur...these seem to be contradicted by the evident hatred she still has for Vivec/Vehk. Everything in TESIII seems to have gone as Azura willed it, so I am confused at her reaction to V. Perhaps it is because she suspects this has all been for him to...ah..."Muatra" her.

Vivec's actions make sense to me as I suspect he is acting out of terrible grief over the loss of his friends. This, along with his confrontation with the Incarnate, may have left him with the very human/mortal emotion of blaming everything on Azura. It is, I think, understandable if not entirely fair. Vehk did murder Nerevear even if Vivec did not, and Vivec would not have existed in this When if Vehk had not done what we suspect Vivec would not have done.

All this is to say I think Vivec is being a bit of an n'wah in the trial and I tend to lean towards Azura. Whatever emotions we may feel we nonetheless are left with Vivec's disappearance during the Oblivion crisis - though I have always felt it simply meant that Vivec/Vehk died due to the destruction of the Heart, it may be also be that Azura had the final word.

Oblivion hath no fury like a Daedric Prince scorned...

Motivating, but the problem is saying for sure WHY Vivec MUATRA'd her. It could be out of spite, or, like I said, to get to something greater.

To avenge his brother and sister death which he sees as her doing - and certainly not without reason. To pull one last stunt before he has to fade into obscurity. To go out with a bang and leave victoriously as his rogue nature demands. You have remember he was the show-man of the three.


---

Nice argument scourgicus.

While Azura is benevolent but the reasons for that are selfish. From the invocation of Azura she's described as demanding some ones unconditional love. It shows her insecurity, her uncertainty and she becomes envious when the Tribunal took the love her followers away from her.

It seemed that Ayem's fall would be more due to Sheogorath; he certainly took getting replaced harder than the other Daedra.

Described....yes, but by whom?? I never get a sense of who she is at the trial. I hear many say she's selfish and manipulative, and while I do see some of the latter, I don't see so much of the former. (At least as far as the games go.) Are many judging her based on what a known liar and thief says?? Not to say that he's wrong, but he always seems to have his own obscure motivations.

The invocation of Azura was written by one of her followers actually. She shows Azura's demand for love in a good light, but you can easily take that and discern the high-school primmadonna out of it that she actually is.



It'd be foolish not to assume the same of Azura. She is a Daedra afterall, willing to take but not to give.

I try not to read more into things than I possibly can. I find that doing so usually let's me see just what I want see, which isn't always conducive to finding the truth.




I'm not sure what she is and is not willing to do based on the obscure sphere of her influence. Should we judge her solely based on the fact that she is Daedra?

Maybe she's got the schizophrenia deal down. Dawn is her tameness, dusk is her vile side.

I'm not trying to show something as grand as the truth, but I'm trying to show that the common portrayal of Azura as good is a little naive to say the least.

She's a goddess that demands constant love from her worshipers, no other emotions are allowed as they must also turn the love inwards to themselves. Imagine this sort love that renders you unable to care what Azura demands from you because you love her. Imagine the horror that people will throw themself into without a second thought, because they love Azura. Love makes blind and Azura abuses it. She doesn't return the love.

Good examples of this are Azura's quest in Morrowind and Oblivion. In the former one of her priests remains in solitude over a bet with Sheogorath. Her priestess is nothing but a pawn in their game. In the latter she allows for worshipers to become vampires when they're infected rather then providing them with a cure disease potion that takes away the early infection. She honors their souls afterwards but doesn't care about their lives because they died with her name on their lips.

It's only when the Tribunal took her worshipers from her that she swore revenge. Only when her followers left her for another.

That Azura is a Daedra matters. What is love without the willingness to make a sacrifice for it? As such Azuras' danger is less obvious and less outspoken then that of the other Daedra. Much like a siren she seduces you to come to her and you'll die with a smile completely oblivious to the danger.

Maybe that's why Vivec mouth-[censored] her in the first place.

But you're absolutely correct, she's demanding. But maybe, just maybe, she's demanding of different things depending on what her sphere is doing. Her sphere is an extension of her, you know? So maybe dawn comes and she feels placid. Dusk falls and she feels like a crazy [censored] on Xanax Bars.

I don't get why Vivec didn't get revenge on Sheogorath. If anyone's to blame for Almalexia going mad, it's him. Heck, he could have been responsible for Dagoth Ur's madness as well.

W...what?

Can I have some crack please?

Break me off some when he gets it to you, please. :hehe:

Maybe the priestess volunteered. Maybe she was a hermit by nature. :shrug:

As for the Oblivion quest. Daedra aren't all-knowing and all-seeing. Maybe she wasn't keeping close tabs on them. How is she to know if they contracted Porphyric Hemophilia? She asked them to do something, trusted/knew they could accomplish it. Maybe her Daedra-sense let her know that the original vamps were killed, and she was satisfied with that. Perhaps it was only after 3 days or longer, when her followers failed to check-in, that she had an inkling that something was wrong. :shrug:

[/devil's advoctate]

Good?? No, no, I don't deal in absolutes. And since I've been coming here the portrayal of Azura hasn't been anything close to what I'd call good. I don't see her as good or evil but I do question the portrayal of her as merely a selfish conniving [censored].



Were these people not willing servants? Could not their sacrifices been for a greater so called good? Lessons learned in time. Maybe so.........maybe??



It seems to me that the timing of her oath of revenge happens after the Tribunal broke their oath. They had a contract with her and they broke their end of the deal. She did not. Again, I see her, as I see all the Daedra, as being limited in the choices they make. Just as if certain things are done on a certain day she must appear, so she may be confined to dealing with an oath broken in her name in the same way. She may have to act upon what the Tribunal has done, whether she wants to or not. (Not that want actually has anything to do with it.) Not because of spite or jealousy, but because she has to. It is what it is.......nothing more.



Again how does it matter? Are the Daedra more selfish then the Aedra? We should see Azura as being more selfish just because she's Daedra? Personally I see the Aedra as being the more selfish of the two, but it's only a matter of degree.

I am not trying to debate you proweler. Yours is one of the best minds on the forum, and I respect what you have to say on matters very much. I only question the view of Azura as being (mostly) evil the way many question her as being (mostly) good. Again I think she is what she is, and can't be much more or less than that. Is it spite or jealousy when a lion eats a gazelle? No it's their nature nothing more. This is how I see the Daedra including Azura.

Sheogorath isn't an Aedra, so he doesn't regulate and personify madness in Nirn.

And Dawn and Dusk are usually taken to mean beginnings and endings, or transitions, which is the same thing. In this story she was present at both, and fittingly so, as she engineered both of them.

Edit: People give Azura such a hard time because she doesn't preside over a sphere of evil malevolence, but of an irritating, everyday series of faults. I typed up a hilarious, goofy response about The Devil Wear Prada, and a Freudian mother, but my mouse crapped out on me.

It would seem that Sheogorath would be responsible because he reacted a lot more drastically than Azura when he got the pink slip. He tried to turn Vivec City into a crater (granted, it'd be an underwater crater) and is said to test the Dunmer as one of the corners of the House of Troubles. Perhaps Azura had factored him into her plans and therefore sat back and watched Sheogorath work his magic on Almalexia.

That would be a silly case of deus ex machina (in dea), and defeat the purpose of the entire story. Sheogorath is not a part of Nirn, thus inhabitants of Nirn may go made completely free of his influence, just as you can kick over a sandcastle without Dagon's involvement.

At the same time, we know that both Azura and Sheogorath were pretty upset about Almsivi making themselves gods.