Remind me why Sheogorath cares?

He tried to turn Vivec City into a crater. And he even put mushroom trees in his realm.

That tells us what he did. Not why he cares. I personally don't think he did care, but instead saw it as an excuse to have a little harmless fun.

Ignoring all the posts and just replying to the question posed in the title of the thread. Yes Azura got what it(he/she?) deserved. Answering a summon blindly with Vivec present no less, that's just plain stupid. What the heck did she think was going to happen, that Vivec has going to give her a boque of flowers and say "Thanks for all the support you've give us(the Triune), huggles all around!" What Azura should have done instead was say "F' you guys hear's a random deadroth instead, choke on that Vivec."

Not like she had anything to lose in the long run; the Daedra are eternal, yet Vivec's power will wane.

Their memories are eternal as well. In a world where myth has power, what kind of power do you suppose an eternal memory has, Hmm?


More over, how do you suppose SHE will cope, seeing sausages served on plates from now on?

He remains an inter-dimensional deity http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml, apparently. CHIM.

Wow, where do you pull this from? He tried to turn Vivec into a crater becuase Vivec created an abomination which he did not cope with.

'I am born of golden wisdom and powers that should have forever been unalike! With this nature I am invited into the Hidden Heaven!' This is mockery of godhood, and perhaps even a way of saying 'If you can walk like them, you ARE them.' It's called LIE Rock for a reason. Vivec City wasn't built as a mockery of the heavens, more so as a mockery to divinity, which could or could not mean that Sheogorath took heed to this. As a Daedric prince, I think he would have just shrugged it off, becuase no one else seemed to notice the difference. The essence of Lie Rock is the essence of Vivec city in the same way. He just told the rock a little lie or two and it turned it's back to the city and tried to destroy it. At any rate, it's 3 AM here and I'm low on sleep. Just stick with this quote from the previous Sermon:

Eighth:

'But then why, you ask, do the Daedra wish to meddle with the Aurbis? It is because they are the radical critique, essential as all martyrs. That some are more evil than others is not an illusion. Or rather, it is a necessary illusion.'

One of the most fitting descriptions of Azura I heard of is "Moonshadow Primadonna".
In my opinion, Azura can be compared to a perfectly clicheed diva, in the negative sense, with a difficult character, arrogant, manipulative, privileged and demanding. As long as she gets what she wants, she puts up the friendly, charming and "good" face and can even be generous, but she never forgets any slights or insults, even to the point of being able to just drop someone when he or she isn't useful to her anymore, to elaborately plan an opponent's downfall or up to even outright (plotting) murder.

In a way, she's one of the most dangerous Daedric Princes out there, because her evil is well hidden. Roaming Nomad just has brought up the perfectly right quote to that:
"That some [Daedra] are more evil than others is not an illusion. Or rather, it is a necessary illusion."

Maybe I haven't asked the right question. What have we seen or read about in game or otherwise that leads to this perception?

I will admit a questioning of her motives in the two quests that proweler mentioned, and yet I see willing servants, and how each can be for a greater "good" even if it can only be seen in the big picture by one who can see that far. (I hate to use that word, good, but it fits right now.) And while I believe, as it's been said here already, that she is the dusk and dawn, the beginning and ending of things, and as such she plays a much bigger part in the beginning and ending of things than we will ever know, (Oblivion crisis anyone?? Maybe?? Huh, huh??). Therefore much of what has been said may be quite fitting.

As far as what we have seen and read about her, we don't see the [censored] [censored] that many seem to describe here, only speculation. This is not to say it's not correct, but again I ask, what leads to this perception of her? Maybe something said by a dev or ex-dev? Something newer members of the forum didn't see? Maybe it's in the library?? Let's just say I need a little more to go on than Vivec's hate.

Come on man; give a dog a bone for god's sake!!!!! :stare:


(It's all good. :celebration: )

I guess it all comes down to the fact that Daedra are pretty much accepted as not caring for mortals at all other than for looking at them like ants in an ant farm. It may be different for Azura, but so far I don't think we've seen much of anything to support that idea. If we could take a glance into her sphere, it would probably reveal a lot more, and we'd know exactly what was going on with that. Perhaps the way she's set up in all the other games is a bit of a dishevelment from your idea. She's more of the mother figure of the Daedra, yet given a six appeal and an odd tribal goodness about her. The Chimer used to think highly upon her, while their motifs were thinking upon change and insight. Maybe she had a direct influence over Velothi, as well. Leading the people of his land eastward, sounds more like a Moses with golden skin to me. But maybe Azura had a scheme in influencing him as well, if she even was involved in the movement.

...and Azurah spoke the First Secret to the Moons and they parted and let Azurah pass. And Azurah took the forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best desserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets. And Azurah left and spoke the Third Secret to the Lunar Lattice and bound the Khajiit to the Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret again, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar.

It's no surprise that she would have influence over the Khajiit as well, seeing as how she is like an avatar of the lunar phases which affect the Khajiit at birth and even through life. So it's not as if she was always seen upon as *scheming*, either, but then again, just look and any Dunmer and wonder why the face of death has been cast upon them. She's a mystery alright, but I still think that Vivec had more of a motive than just revenge for MUATRA-ing her at the trial. There's a certain reason why he'd want to top on her tower, and something tells me that after it, Vivec and mortal was finally over-taken by Vivec the god, which is why he went bye-bye. I'm still wondering how she got back into Moonshadow, though. It's a riveting thought, but maybe she took residence like Jyg and schemed some more, liek she always loves to do, which in the void of Oblivion. Anyone notice if a new constellation formed after she exploded?

To know more, we'd have to look further into seeing what her worshipers did after that happened. Did they all start attacking Tribunal Templemen like mad, or did the sit in solace, waiting for the guiding light of Azura's Dawn to come back to them? She's manipulative alright...

And yet the idea could be supported by by what you have written......at least from a Khajiit's point of view. But I wouldn't ask a Bosmer.



Well if her sphere is the beginning and ending of things, (Sounds like a Monty Python skit. "And now the lady who brings about the beginning and ending of things.") then I guess she would have to be manipulative. But the beginning and ending of things can be both good and bad......in the end it's needed if things are to progress, so overall I see it mostly for the good, (If there is such a thing.).

My point is, and has been, that she is none of these things people say about her, and all of them. She is neither good or bad, but acts within her nature. To blame her is the same as blaming the wind for blowing. I have to say I think you are right. I think if any mortal would understand that she is just acting within her nature, and therefore there can be no fault in her, it would be Vivec. As such his Muatraing (word) her would have to be about more than revenge. (Maybe a little insight from the man himself on this??? Huh??? Maybe???............eh,... NO.) And as such only time will tell if it was deserved or not, and more than likely it will be viewed as both depending on who you talk to. (If there's anyone left after all is said and done.)

Okay, I'm tired of this now.

*turns on his heel, and skips away laughing like Woody Woodpecker*

That's what I was getting at with the quote for WOCMA. There's different views on her, and even then the Nords are likely to give her some credit as well. But all in all, I believe she's just a hogger for the most apathy as well. Boethia could easily get more than her in terms of affection, but it's just not within his sphere to seek it. maybe there is something we're over-looking here...she's also known as Mother of the Rose. There could be some sort of debilitation in that. What at all do roses have to do with dawn and dusk? Maybe Sanguine of the Rose is implimented in there somehow. But it's a stretch. Just looking over what is and is not, according to why exactly she's so arrayed as to what it is she actually does. I don't think beginnings and ends are in on it, becuase that seems more like Dagon's realm to me. It seems more like a transcendence. Opposites. Spiritual upheaval. The times of dawn and dusk are considered to be the hours when the world of spirits collide with our plane. You know that feeling you get...when the sun is setting? That warm feeling of a self-containment, of righteous adolescence? Then when the dusk fades away you're left cold and empty with the sickly blackness of the Void, SITHISIT-of-movement. But when the dawn returns again to take seat in the eastern sky, breaking the darkness in its first glorious light, that feeling returns momentarily, and you know you are again safe.

She also did a 'dawn to dusk' move with the Dunmer. She led the Chimer, the gold-skinned beauties of thought, and turned them into Dunmer, the black-skinned beauties of motivation, of struggle. Complete opposites. But the same in the sense that they were led in another direction again becuase of her. They were punished for the Tribunal's gluttony, but they knew no different. Azura has the three keys to creation, as well. Insight (to think of becoming), fighter's spirit (the will to be), and love (the aspiration of the universe). Or something like those. Sound like anyone we know? Possibly. Could also be linked back to the Sermons, seeing as how Vivec is in this rash understanding of her, as all motives are triggered by instinct. Lie Rock, however, used the confusion to launch his own attack on the city-god, Vivec. He was hastened by all three of the black guardians, who wanted him swiftly gone, though they meant no hostility to the lord of the middle air. There's a jumble in here, as it could mean the pitiable opposites of creation, or it could mean perhaps the scriptures of the Mace, the Word, and the Sword, or the Tribunal themselves, or perhaps the three Deadra. It's a hard guess thought. Any incident that in Azura's Coast is where Vivec was taught by the Barons of Move Like This?



Of course Vivec would know. I find it sad because we have no real insight to Sotha Sil or Almalexia, such as if they learned through the same motives as Vivec. But seeing as how he comes closest to understanding that we know of, I think it's safe to say that he the best candidate. But mortal is a bad choice of words. Perhaps at one point as a mortal he looked unto her, back when they worshiped her, but his anticipation is Mephala at any rate. Secrecy in love. Love in motives. Motives in secrecy. I think that having MK comment on the thought of him MUATRAing her to leap on top of her tower would be very nice, and any good explanation behind why she got back into her realm would be good as well. I know you can't kill a Daedra, but if you pierce one through the tower, jump on top of said tower, then reach a higher summit by jumping off of said tower, there's got to be some prosecution in what happens to you. I'm saying that even thought he already had CHIM, he might have still been longing to get rid of his mortal side once and for all, and by using her tower as a base (becuase what better to use than the tower of a prince of transcendence?) it gave him just the leap he needed. Outside of the AE is where he longed to be both mentally AND physically. Just like the Dwemer, thought maybe for a different reason. There will always be other people, else we'd have nothing to go on at all.

'UNDERSTAND THAT SITHISIT STILL TRAVELS IN A PHOSPHORESCENT MIRROR OF THE SKY DROWNED AND SMILING INTERMITTENT HOPES ENOUGH TO ANSWER ALL THE THINGS NOT YET QUERIED.'



Hahah, I have this vision of the Joker in your avatar just skipping away laughing like that. Scary too all at once.

Without weighing everyone else's reasons I would like in my simple way to allow Azura and the 'Gods' to take a pragmatic view:

- If Azura lets these The Trubunal get away with defying her then who will be next?

- Then try assuming that Azura is as advertised in the up-front Morrowind Gameplay and then look at what was done with Lhorkan's Heart - The Tribunal 'bound' it - could that have been what made it possible for Dagoth Ur to commence his spewing of filth?

- Also do Gods feel pain or are they further harmed after their hearts are torn from their bodies and then bound?

- Wasn't the tearing from the body part another God's judgement, right or wrong;

- How do you think the Daedra Princes and Aedra generally would feel if everyone decided that they could do that with a God's Heart? As in: 'Hey guys, lets go down the pub for a quick one and then it's off to Sheoggy's place to tear out his heart, bind it and svck the power out of him to make ourselves Gods'

- Did any of the Aedra or Daedra try to prevent the Nerevarine?

- Frankly if I were one of the Daedric Princes or Aedra and Vivec tried to turn a so-called solemn proceeding as this supposed court into a circus and public muatring I would simply have snuffed him - unless I was a God that liked being muatred?

- Sheogorrath may be insane (and we know the old one opposed Azura) - but is the new one a masochist? What will his peers do in response to his inaction in the face of this outrage against what was likely their collective judgement re the Nerevarine and The Heart?

The one clear thing that comes out of this is that the difference / gap between mortals and immortals is reduced.

Basically it looks like one man's view of something that should have a far wider prospect and ramifications.

If you are street wise you will know this trick - A street thug attacks someone and then when they try to defend themselves or anyone steps in to defend them the thug rounds on the defender/s and accuses them of being the aggressors. It has nothing to do with whether the action was right or wrong an deverything to do with the abuse of force or power.

Also it invites the reader to delight in an appalingly cruel and degraded act.

So this is not the Vivec I met in his Temple in Morrowind. This is the nutcase Vivec that you might read about in the Tribunal's books - and I took that to be spin for the masses. And frankly the Tribunal books had some excellent passages but seemed otherwise quite purile. So as a player it does not ring true to me.

To say Vivec achieved a higher state of awareness and then goes from the sane and balanced pragmatist in his Temple to this lunatic once he is freed from the corrupting influence of the abuse of the Heart does not ring true in itself either.

To persuade me to accept this is possible there would have to be something else involved ... waiting ...

Hey, I skipped out singing a Woody Woodpecker tune. Doubt you'll get much insight out of me. But I will mention one word, and one word only in response, and only because I heard (part of) what you said as I was merrily on my way.

*So you hear a voice in the distance*

Duality. (echo, echo, echo)

People defy gods all the time. It's how them become them.



The Tribunal didn't bind it, the Dwemer did. The Tribunal just used it to become gods while the Dwemer (might have) used it to ascend to their own plane, while Dagoth Ur used it to become a god too, and he has pretty valid reasons to do what he did, as far as I'm concerned. Not all level-headed, but far away from 'his spewing of filth'.



Lorkhan was demolished when this happened. You see those two moons in the sky? Yeah, that's what's left of Lorkhan.



Yeah, the Aedra were pretty pissed that he tricked the into participating in the creation of the mortal world. I think they were justified in their actions.



The reason why everyone DOESN'T do it is becuase it's far more complicated than that. You can't just go up to a god and rip their heart out. :wacko:



No. At least, not during the MQ. But there may have been some behind-the-scenes work as to the way things played out. In the MQ, the PC actually gets blessings from an avatar of Talos, so I'd say at least the majority of them are glad the PC is ridding the world of Dagoth Ur.



There's nothing you would be able to do about it if he pierced you, except explode just like she did. It's not like ANY god is like 'Yay! Take my tower next, and degrade me into a wandering idiot in the endless seas of Oblivion! Please Vivec, please!!!'



Nothing? :shrug: It's not like it's worth shooting a dead horse. The Nerevarine incident is over with, and the place-holder Sheogorath hasn't done anything about it yet, and probably never will.



No, it's the same Vivec, just not all dishevelment-like. You really think Vivec is going to be mean to the reincarnation of the man he slew, yet the same man who is going to go out there and rid his land of his (im)mortal enemy? No, he's going to deceive, just like is in his nature.



Wait? Well, I really don't see where you're getting the insanity idea from. It's not like he just ran in stark naked, foaming from the mouth, smelling of vodka and hokers, and said 'YO AZURAAAAAAA! EAT THIS, BIOOOOOOOOOOOTCH!' He simply was doing what he likes to do, which is gaining power and back-siding everyone in the universe.

And yes, duality comes into play here, but the thing you're trying to get answers to has nothing to do with duality, just with natural impulse.

But vehk is the universe, so he backsides himself :/

I don't see it as Vivec humiliating anyone except Azura; he was just reinforcing that he would play by his own rules. He pretended to submit to a trial, but in reality he knew all along that he was the captain of his fate -- humiliating Azura before departing for Aetherius at the time of his choosing.

Yes sir! ^_^

At ease. I'm far from a loremaster. Sorry for the pomposity.

She got stabbed in the mouth by a spear. I think she'll recover. Just like Mehrunes Dagon recovered all those times.

MUATRA is so much more than a spear, man. You know that.

Well, excuse me if I don't follow the Freudian interpretation that everyone seems so fond of.

To me, it's not so much Freudian than it is true as [censored].

Dude, this IS a land of myth and magic; at face value, it was his dong in spear form. And you HAVE to at least acknowledge the fact that it's magic. I mean, Vivec does talk about turning it into a walking dwarf at some point in the Sermos, if I remember right, soooo...

It's beyond magic, it's what he stands for. six, life, and rock-n-roll...I mean...pattern. Ever wonder WHY he's a hermaphrodite?