Well, I read the Trials of Vivec and I have to say I felt rather disturbed that Vivec got the last laugh in the end. Although the Nereverine succeeded in fulfilling the Nerevarine Prophecies completely, I figured that that was the end of that and that the rumor mill of the Daedra stealing Vivec away in the middle of the night was their revenge. Guess not. It was Vivec who got revenge. However, getting to the point, I have to ask, was Vivec's banishment and, "[censored]", of Azura justified?

In TES III: Morrowind I felt that Azura had been justified in cursing the gods and the Chimer for their abandonment of Daedra worship. However, as I have continue to explore the vast and complicated (albeit hard to comprehend) lore I feel as if, in fact, it was a bitter, if not overly-excessive, punishment delivered out of pure spite, which, for a Daedric Prince, isn't hard to believe. It was the Tribunal who broke the oath, not the Chimer. So why were they punished and made un-appealing by Azura?

Here are some of my newer reasonings that Azura was being spiteful:

1. ) The fact that Azura wished to destroy the generals who acted only out of love for their people leads me back to the possibility that Azura did just acted only out of pure spite and selfishness. However, this is argueable as the Tribunal could be compared to a group of vigilantes circumventing the law in order to exact their own interpretation of justice, whether or not it is in the best interest of the people. They are doing wrong to make a right.

2.) Vivec harnessed the power of Lorkhan's heart because he felt it was in the best interests of his people, even though he murdered Indoril Nerevar, Khan or King of the Chimer and Resdayn, and broke the oath he made before Azura and Boethia. While two wrongs may not make a right, he continued to do many good deeds to keep his people safe and keep them from being destroyed by the Empire. This gives me another reason that Azura only acted in self-interest and cares nothing for the people. Even more proof lies in her curse?

These are only two of the many thougths that have been flooding my mind after contemplating the books. However, regardless of whether or not Azura was/is spiteful, it cannot be denied that without the Nerevar Incarnate, the Nerevarine, Azura's Champion, Dagoth Ur would have only grown stronger, Vivec would have been unable to keep the Ghost-fence intact, and the blight would have spread all over Morrowind, and possibly the Empire as a whole. This could have ended with the entire destruction of Western Civilization and well as the conquereing of Morrowind.

So, as you can tell, I have reached an impass in my thoughts. Is Azura simply acting rationally, taking revenge on a people who abandoned her, but, at the same time, creating a prophecy that would save them from complete slavery or extinction, all while Vivec, who had good intentions, was wrong is stealing the mantle of god-hood and achieved the opposite of his intentions? Or ia Azura simply a petty deity who cursed the people who worshipped her (the Daedric are not bound to a gender) because they didn't want someone who did not care for them to gamble with their lives, only out of self-interest?

It is debateable at best and, in truth, very perplexing. My best bet is that it may be some combination of the two, with the prior being improbable but resonable and the latter being possible but unlikely.

With these thoughts in mind, let me continue to add a few more issues that are worth taking into consideration as well.

1.) Excerpt taken from Dragon Break at Red Mountain, excerpt taken from Vivec's trial:

"But when Vehk the mortal reached into the Heart, he ceased to be anything except for what he wished to be. The axis erupted. There was an exact cracking, an instant of pure Aurbis, his hands burnt black by that ever-nil of static change, and Vivec the god who had never been had always been. A whole universe swelled up to legitimize his throne... as the old universe, where Vehk the mortal still lapped up Godsblood, warped itself to accept its new equivalent. And like all things magical it simply could not happen, could not Be. Red Mountain was the intersection of the Is-Is Not as it was of old, its center point, and it did not hold. And so the Dragon, having broken, saw fit to heal, turning into the world you know."

2.) Excerpt taken from Dragon Break at Red Mountain:

From the court transcript of the Trials of the Warrior-Poet:

"Except now Vivec the God was alive before his own birth, which had, in fact, really happened in the death of the last universe. Hard to grasp in three-dimensional thought? Why, of course it is. And so that is why some semblance of my anguished personal reconciliation found its way into my own scripture. Why did I leave the Nerevarine two accounts of his death, one that I could have easily erased from the minds of my own people? Because he is Hortator, GHARTOK PADHOME AE ALTADOON DUNMERI, my lord and king in this world and the last, and as Vehk and Vehk I murdered him, then raised him, then taught to him to know, and so would I have it when he came to me at last that he decide. I give you this as Vivec... But I gladly?no, delightfully?admit to stealing my bridge to godhood! Let the court record I would do it again and again. Moreover, I've left instructions for others to do the same, and look more pretty than I did doing it!... What we did was far more calculated, precise in accordance with laws set down in ancient days. Unfortunately I cannot present you with the drafts of Magnus we worked from. I love you too much... Without the Heart, the glory of the Dunmer would have never grown as radiant... I am the Thief of this World, with stars, and by my Charges I put you down."

Thus, Vivec willingly confesses to murdering Indoril Nerevar, and states with no reservations that he was not born a god; having broken their oath to Azura, the Tribunal used the tonal tools of Kagrenac and elevated themselves to Godhood. As he wore his Water Face, the truth of this testament is doubtless.

These are very grave crimes indeed - However, they cannot be explained as simply as that. While the fact that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar is logically indisputable, the question remains whether they are one and the same with the beings we know today.

Thus, in the "last universe," as Vivec calls it, Nerevar was the Hai Resdaynia, the joint ruler of Morrowind, and Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil were his counsels and mortal in every conventional sense of the word. In the universe current, the Tribunal are divine and were born so, and Nerevar was the Hortator and was never ruler of Morrowind.

See why this is worth taking into account? Vivec's thievery of the mantle of god-hood cause the Dragon to break. This adjustment of the universe brings a necessisty to re-evaluate certain issues, as their nature has changed and they may no longer be percieved the same way. To quote Dragon Break at Red Mountain:

However, causality seems to be able to affect itself. What if, theoretically, you were able to travel back in Time, to change the events (to undo the accuracy of the stone, the presence of the stone, the presence of the boy or the presence of the window)? Time would reveal different circumstances.

Because of the changing of circumstances, it is only common sense that says we should re-evalute the cirucumstances.

The fact that Vivec did murder Nerevar only mattered when it was recorded as an event in history, or rather, when the universe said it happened. However, because Vivec changed the universe, he re-wrote history to say that he never murdered Nerevar and that he was only the Hortator of the Great Houses and that the mortal-god-kings always existed. Now with this in mind, it is important to take into account whether or not Azura's punishment actually happened for a valid reason, or whether it should have happened at all.

You have in universe A:

Nerevar's generals and queen murder him and obtain Kagrenac's tools; they use the tools to obtain god-hood and break their Oath to Azura; this brings about the curse and the transformation of the Chimer as well as the Nerevarine Prophecies.

Now you have the universe after the Dragon Break:

Nerevar was the Hortator of the Great Houses and the Tribunal were born into existence as gods.

If Nerevar was never murdered and the Tribunal were born into existence as gods, then did the curse actually happen at all? If so, then it is a contradiction. Also, if this was the case, how are there still documents that list that Nerevar was murdered by the Tribunal? How do the Ashlanders remember while non of the civilized houses do?

This could be because of several reasons:

1.) I smell a contradiction of lore here.

2.) Maybe not. While the mortals and the mortal realm maybe subject to the change of the universe, the etAda are not. This would be why Azura and the Tribunal have come to a conflict and why the Dunmer were punished. But still, that does not explain why the Ashlanders remember when Nerevar's murder and the Tribunal's rise never existed, and Azura's curse never happened.

3.) Azura's curse did happen, but the Dunmer never realized it or, they did realize it, and they did not know why she cursed them. This could be why Daedra worship fell to the worship of the Almsivi.

Which one is most probable? I would bet on the last one. However, the Dragon Break's effect is hard to fully comprehend and therefore, it would be hard to make a decision on a subject that has content that has been altered by it.

Anyway, excuse my digression. I'm getting tired.

The point is, did Azura deserve what Vivec did to her? Should Vivec have been tried and executed? That, I do not know. I'll leave that up to you, the reader.

For my references, please look at these links:

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/astionarticle1.shtml

http://www.imperial-library.info/characters/trial_vivec.shtml

Note: Also, if you are to pay attention to anything, please pay attention to the first half of the article, up until the discussion of the Dragon Break, as exhaustion may have taken a toll on my ability to reason, my skills of evaluation, and my memory as well. However, I would like to ask that you please do read the entire article. I merely have placed this as a disclaimer to make the reader aware of my present state.

Yes. Because everyone loves a rogue.

Well they murdered their leader, made themselves gods using the heart of Lorkhan and abandoned the daedra they had previously worshipped. I'd say treason and hubris are pretty good reasons.

Terms like "deserve" and "fairness" hinge on the idea we can agree on what's appropriate for a common man. And yet, here we are talking about "gods and demons and mad shapers", and "different rules apply to gods and demons and mad shapers". I don't know what's fair to an infinite incorporeal being, what's appropriate for a transcendent hermaphrodite to be doing. Not to mention that ethical questions are circular by their nature; emotional pontificating caught up in a language that borrows from accountancy to explain accountablity and lend it an air of precision.

Which is exactly why I am turning to all of you for an answer.

I don't have an answer because I see in the question a sort of category mistake. Or if I have to choose, I go with Hyamentar's reply. When the lovable rogue does it, it's not nearly as bad as it should be.

Only Vivec was ever proven to have committed the murder, and interestingly, when asked, he says, "We did not murder Nerevar." This may not have been a direct lie, but a suggestion that they didn't conspire together.

As for abandoning the Daedra, you can't blame them, considering how unreliable and fickle the Daedra Princes are.

If i'm not mistaken, Vivec was implying that vehk the mortal murdered nerevar, not the entirety of the tribunal, and not the god vehk.

AYEM AE SEHTI AE VEHK

They all did it. Vehk is simply making the troika-murder look pretty.

You can't say Vivec is good, Azura is evil. Neither can you say the opposite. The line between good and evil is always shifting, and can only be seen from certain points of perspective.
So whether she deserved it or not is purely based on who's looking. Obviously Vivec thought she did deserve it.

Please, indulge me? Am I asking the wrong question here, or is my anolysis off?

I ask this question because I feel as if all my feelings toward Azura were off now. I'm going through a "moral crisis." I cannot tell if Vivec's actions were justified and that bothers me. Then again, like M'Aiq said:



Do we know his motives? Can we ourselves judge?

Personally, I was biased towards Azura and I felt that the Nerevarine Prophecies should have been the end of Vivec. I guess the devs thought otherwise.

Sorry if this sounds condescending, I do not mean it in that tone. But, its more complicated then that:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons_preface.shtml

When Vivec tells you that he regrets that action more than all of his lifes choices, he is referring to breaking his oath to Nerevar to never employ the tools for the use that he did, and it may well be genuine, meaning that he doesn't feel, or doesn't feel as deeply the regret of murdering Nerevar. He even goes as far as to write a confession in the sermons, however...

V'Vehk is the dual existence of God and Mortal Vehk. Vivec means V'Vehk, which means Vehk and Vehk, and the mortal Vivec did indeed murder Nerevar. However, when he apotheosized a Dragon Break occurred, and the God Vivec entered into the Mortal Realm from the God-Place, where everything is always happening at once. Basically he predated his mortal self, and had nothing to do with Nerevars murder. That is why half his skin in Dunmer, and half Chimer.

He bears the responsibility, but not in whole.

Seems like he's trying to get off on a technicality....


Or he regrets that he got caught, or that he caused harm to the people of Vvardenfell by using the tools (and thus perpetuating the Heart and Dagoth Ur's use of it). I'm not sure. He doesn't seem like he'd be all "oh, if I could do it all over again, I'd never have used the tools!" He's too prideful and egotistic to pass up that sort of power. Not that he needs it anymore now that he has CHIM, but that's another issue...

Who knows, maybe he does regret killing Nerevar, if only because it precipitated the Nerevarine, whose influence has shaken the Tribunal faith (part of which was hunting down Nerevarines). Sort of like "Well, darn, if I'd known that would happen, I'd never have murdered my old pal Nerevar."

Given the events of Red Mountain 4000 years ago, it may well be what happened was for the best. Regardless of Nerevar leaving Voryn Dagoth to guard the tools. He still used them, and likely would have still become Dagoth Ur. The treachery of the Tribunal allowed for there to be a counter to Dagoth's insanity....if you want to call it that...and his perception of being betrayed, when in fact he was the first betrayer when he used the tools, even if he was just 'messing around' with them.

Yeah, but the Tribunal could've destroyed the Heart and ended Dagoth Ur's threat once and for all; but, they didn't because doing so would mean the end to their power, too (if I recall correctly). Apparently, keeping their power was more important to them than getting rid of Dagoth Ur once and for all.

Who said Ur used the tools?

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dagoth_Ur_(god).

I rarely look at the UESP. And I'm confident it's wrong.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_plan.shtml, sir.

edit:

"2E 882: Dagoth Ur and his ash vampires awake refreshed and emerge from lower Red Mountain into the Heart Chamber. Dagoth Ur ritually binds himself and his brethren as heartwights in a ritual of his own devising. First stages of construction of Second Numidium [conceived during the Long Sleep] are begun by heartwights and atronach constructs in a chamber near the Heart of Lorkhan. Keeping the Second Numidium project a secret from the Tribunal is a high priority."

I don't want to make another post. If Ur used the tools to acheive apotheosis while the Hortator and The Tribunal were gone, TES III probably wouldn't have happened. He could have just blasted their asses. He EXPERIMENTED. That is all.

:huh: I don't see it.

From http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/dagoth_defeat.shtml

Eh, posted another post anyway. Read the edited post above.

Note also I meant "used the tools" as in achieving apotheosis.

I think all I meant by all this was that both the Tribunal and Ur needed the Heart intact. And, the ritual you enboldened in the text there probably occured after he experimented with the heart, which no doubt granted him no small amount of power -- power enough, perhaps, to bind himself and the heartwights.

Hey!! 946000! Read and Learn, Sir!! I even cut and pasted all the necessary text to make it easier for you, and I even provided links as proof.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevar_redmountain.shtml%22

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/nerevar_redmountain.shtml


"2E 882: Dagoth Ur and his ash vampires awake refreshed and emerge from lower Red Mountain into the Heart Chamber. Dagoth Ur ritually binds himself and his brethren as heartwights in a ritual of his own devising. First stages of construction of Second Numidium [conceived during the Long Sleep] are begun by heartwights and atronach constructs in a chamber near the Heart of Lorkhan. Keeping the Second Numidium project a secret from the Tribunal is a high priority."


" Little is known about the features, scale, or stage of completion of Akulakhan [Second Numidium]. No one has gained entrance to the Heart Chamber since 2E 282. In 3E 417, Keening and Sunder were captured, and may substantially aid in Akulakhan's construction."


Seriously. Read the Lore. Than debate it. Not the other way around.

Don't try to prove him wrong, just ask what the hell else could have happened.

And seriously guys, Azura started it, using the Chimer as pawns to destroy the Dwemer with, breaking the peace of the First Council. Or am I misremembering that she told Nerevar about the threat of Anumidum?

The Pilgrimage to Holamayan prior to the events of Red Mountain, yes, she confirmed the existence of it to Nerevar. As for her manipulating them, what do you expect form a Daedra Lord?

The story started with her and ended with her. And its particulars were determined by the spheres of her brethren, Mephala, Boethiah and the House of Troubles. A full circle. This is the greatest justice the world will ever see!