Thanks BA


Just so you know the reason I am being a bit of a stickler is not to make your life difficult.....honestly


Sewing up the rules nice and tight stops disagreements over what's allowed or not.....it also stops anyone who might like to search out minor loopholes to exploit, even if ostensibly unknowingly because they perhaps really believe said loophole is quite ok to use just because it is not explicitly banned.


The Silverhand was one such, because if you stumble across them They will look and act as bandits! Hence why I said about being clear!


Still to be addressed.....roadside wep bandits.....e.g. two are always near Frostmere and whilst initially "busy" they will go for you and are quite nasty. So in which case what about Roadside theif type attacks....typically argonian/khajiit/dunmer ?


Thankfully we have covered all the main areas of conflict......but there are always more for the clever mind to find.


We recently had a debate on.....spamming skills. I think the upshot was.....during a competition time is too limited to NOT allow skill spamming...even if purists are uncomfortable. Eg....making 1000 alchemy potions.....1000 daggers.....firing muffle every three minutes everywhere you go! We would never get crafting skills to usable levels in the alloted time! So its allowed. But it should really be enshrined in the "General Rules"....to be clear!


I am sure there's more.....if you are agreeable I Will post if they occur to me.....others should be encouraged to think of loophole closers too.

Do Reavers count as Bandits?

Explain 'Reavers' in Skyrim pse!


Plus..Forsworn....where do we stand with those Breton Savages ( yes...I don't like them)

Ahah, Rick, I know! I'm just saying things for the fun of it. You should know to not take everything that I say seriously (I spent a lot of time discussing this with my girlfriend, until she finally understood I was just joking!) because life is so dull without a bit of fun

No, Silverhands aren't bandits, they're... Well, Silverhands! They don't count as bandits!

The roadside bandits and thieves count as bandits, HOWEVER, hired thugs do not, since they're only mercenaries! (Gonna add this!)

Who thinks it's a good idea do skill spam on a competition?! It's almost the same thing as cheating in my book! (Gonna add a rule for this as well!)

Oh please do post, Rick! I need all the help I can get! (Let's be honest, I don't know if I'm doing things correctly and I need some friendly advice.)

Yes, they do. Reavers are the same as bandits, but they inhabit Solstheim.

Forsworn count as bandits as well, since they're bandits of the Reach.

On Solsthiem the bandits are called reaver. Mostly dark elves.


Edit: Ninja'd by BA.

I think I'd be okay with no spamming. It definitely makes things verrrry interesting.

BA


Ok.....skill spamming......poss vote if you like.....but

I will say now that if you do not spam skills....its virtually the same as saying "no perk use"


Why?


Because to add a perk you have to reach skill level X......and many of our skill trees level soooo slowly you simply would not get to benefit before the end of the round!


Eg.....to reach master alchemist needs like 1500 expensive potions/poisons made


How could you justify 1500 potions in casual gameplay? Even if some are to sell and some are to use.....you are still making 1000 totall unnecessary potions....except for the sole readon of raising the skill.......and that is spamming.


Exact same argument for smithing.....justify making 200 dwarven bows.....you can't

So Smithing would never get above steel with the few items you actually NEEDED to craft.


Im not especially proud of spamming like that.....but particularly in competition its essential....imo of course


Edit...just to keep things balanced.....mages.


If a mage could only use a spell to fullfil the need of immediate gameplay......how long would it take to raise destruction or illusion then? They have the same problem.


What about archers......do you know how long it takes to raise archery if you don't keep shooting a nearby troll......FOREVER!


It would be a disaster above novice


Useless weapons, cardboard armour, shields of playdough and spell casting that may as well be blowing soap bubbles in your enemies faces....


Imo.....of course

Methinks no spamming truly makes it survival of the fittest. It would probably mark a very well earned victory.

I meant skill spamming as in making 1000 iron daggers in one sitting. Smithing is hard to level without the spam, but not impossible (I found this out by my own experience).

Same for alchemist. Just don't spam 1000 healing potions in one sitting. Make a few healing potions, a few elemental protection potions, etc. That's how I do it and I always managed to get it pretty high.

Yeah, I know mages will suffer. Destruction is easy to level. Just attack your enemies. Illusion can be used on enemies as well, or when you want to be sneaky (for example, going on a sneak attack).

I know how long it takes to raise archery because, believe it or not, I used to play lots of archer characters. Just keep shooting the enemies with thousands of arrows and you'll level up! (I know this, again, from personal experience. I had a level 40+ character that his main skill was archery. I got it up to level 60 or 70 [I don't remember well, because it was before I joined the forums, waaay before!] and I only shot my enemies when I meant to kill them.)

I always got my skills to go above level 50 by not spamming them. It's easy, kinda grindy but extremely fun.

Also, I, as a mage, never spam my skills. The only thing I have difficulty in leveling is conjuration because I'm usually too busy running away and zapping enemies to actually pay attention, so I usually just summon it once every fight.

Kane....sorry mate, but survival of the fittest would be an understatement


Edit..ya ninja'd me post

But the point is my friend......in competition you do not have the time luxury to shoot 1000 arrows to gain a few points of archery.....you need those skills NOW or your foes out level you and kill you.

Example Legendary Troll shooting.....takes about 40 hits to go from skill 29 to skill 30.....its nothing!


You just would NOT survive above level 10


Bandit chiefs and anything over outlaw on Legendary or thug on expert.......and youre toast


It would turn a "Bandit Genocide" slaughterfest Fun Round into a slow stealth archer piecemeal assassination round.....with lots of running away......which wasn't the idea!


But....what does everyone else think?


And....where is sixy?

Why is she not inputting here?

Sah.......wake up

That's not true, Rick. I always managed to kill everything on Legendary, when I was above level 10 (without grinding, I might add).

Sah is having her beauty sleep, don't interrupt her!

Edit: Sorry Rick, but we'll continue discussing this tomorrow. It's past midnight and I have to wake up at 6:50 for school...

Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Light armor, sword and board. Archery to get a jump.

Well gentlemen


BA and Kane I am humbled by your clear mastery of your abilities


As it happens....My girls also favour light armour board and bash! So I am well acquainted with the starting stats of leather armour


So then BA.....if I understand you correctly......with no grinding......meaning hardly any smithing skill and therefor an AR of no more than about say 90 with two LA perks and a few skill points


On Legendary......OVER level 10 (Outlaws and the odd thug).......you kill EVERYTHING!

That is quite fantastic.......I would be dead on my first lone encounter with a Sabrecat(2.swipes lethal)......thug(2 good hits lethal)....chief(1 twoH hit lethal)....bear( 1 hit lethal)....ice wolf(3 bites lethal)


Of course we normally meet multiple foes together.....especially in mines/tombs/forts etc

Making your achievements even more impressive.....hats off to you guys


Naturally when you say YOU kill everything.....I presume you don't mean actually "Team Lydia and Atronach" kill everything.....


Well...I want you on my side then!


So do you propose we do this round totally un-spammed and so therefore unprepared from the get go?

Basic unsmithed armour and weapons, bottom level spells, longbow.

Doing what then.....only gathering upgrades as we go from spoils......cos you won't be able to make your own gear that's any better with such minimal smithing!


But I Have to ask.....why?

Killing bandits will be laborious and dangerous

And I don't have your skills......killing steel armoured chiefs will be totally impossible for me....at least before they run over and marmalise me

Keep in mind, I've never done that higher than Expert. I dont think I could do it on Master and Legendary just isnt fun to me.

Kane....ah.....sorry to misunderstand.


Since your post immediately followed BA's with what looked to me to be a concurring comment.....naturally I Thought you meant you were agreeing with his statement of killing everything on Legendary.....over level 10 with no skill grinding.


Since You had not done that above Expert difficulty.....well that is quite a bit different of course


Sorry about that.....

I realize that this is going to be coming from a different perspective, because, as you know, I generally play at Adept or occasionally Expert...

I'm with MrBA on the subject of spamming skills. I just don't do it. I don't even do it when I (try to) play on Legendary in one of these competitions.

I occasionally spar for a minute or two with a wolf or mudcrab that I'm going to kill anyway, to practice Block and get a bit of armor work, but I don't (for example) use healing during those little sessions, so I end them when the character's health is getting low. And with Yellow-Boy, I sneaked everywhere, but that was the nature of the character.

I don't spam crafts. I don't spam-cast Muffle. I don't sneak behind sleeping npcs.

As for one thing you said above, it just doesn't work to spam Destruction, which only advances if you're in combat. Same with Conjuration.

And it's not "useless above Novice." It might be useless above Expert; I'll bow to more experienced players on that. But I'm quite sure that at Expert or below, I can "just play the game" without spamming/grinding skills. I'm willing to accept that as a challenge.

I understand that you're talking from purely a "Legendary" point of view, but the rules of this competition don't require you to play at that difficulty; it's your choice. I don't plan to spam.

No worries, Rick. All in a good discussion.


@glargg I tend to play the same way, with the exception of occasionally upping to master. I find it much more engaging for RP purposes.

I'd have to find my exact post of course, but I believe the Gist was along the lines of: if you mined a 100 iron ores then smelted them, then made daggers out of all those ingots... it was different that casting muffle over muffle..soon as your Magick was high enough...


You had to earn the ingots or gold to buy them... casting muffle over muffle or block/healing while a mud crab isn't really earned .. the discussion was spamming verses grinding... errr I think.


I do think a certain amount of grinding get of craft skills is needed on Master and Legendary. .. which is why I generally play at Adept or Expert.


But as MR.BA is the host this round... my definitions are moot... except as discussion fodder.


BTW... for those who don't know I did Ask Mr.BA to take over.... I have some IRL issues that make my time very limited right now....

Yes Glargg that's right.....all of it.....because I know how bad destruction is to raise.....you can not spam it except by hitting a self healing target over and over.....but theres no shortage of those trolls eh?


Whilst you are correct I CHOOSE to play legendary with no arm twisting.....you also CHOOSE to avoid it and not artificially raise your skills in the process. To me Legendary IS the normal level.....and smithed gear IS the normal requirement.....managing without it to me is artificially gimped for a super tough...usual fatal play.


If the offer is there to play at legendary, so should the matching prerequisites be to enable it.....its hard enough even with smithed gear!


As for unsmithed weapons being useless above novice....well, I confess I have never been under expert and that was only for one competition. But it matters not because the essential thing is without the expected levels of crafting, Legendary or even master are doomed gameplays.....unless you are like BA and can somehow do Legendary with virtually unsmithed gear.

(Really have to find out how he defeats those snowy sabrecats and snow bears on the seven thousand steps around level 12....because they are one hit killers......I have ways to evade them....but me, I could not take one on).


However ALL of this kinda misses the point.......its supposed to be a rapid slaughterfest.....enjoy the carnage! Running around killing!


Even BA can't do that on Legendary with no smithing....he'd have to slow down in the forts (er...I think....maybe he just that good).


FWIW.....I spam only for competitions.....but not say raising block by facing a troll for two hours and keep glugging health potions. I just have a little board and bash session with each enemy, so I don't get bord.


Personally I'm not big on magic in skyrim ( I bet you noticed) so no I dont spam muffle to raise alteration either. Believe it or not...I do prefer restoration healing over potions.....but out of competition I do neither....natural healing or with a bit of enchanted healing rate only.


BUT BUT BUT


this is where things get kinda crazy......I don't like magic much...except the light spell sometimes.


But this is not about me is it.....I am not the one in the game am I


Adella is pro-magic use......just not pro-robe wearer

In otherwords she is a ruddy closet Battlemage......which genuinely shocked me and I only realised it about a month ago.


She is initially all about the armour etc as a scout warrior she craves the protection......but then she starts wanting to add useful spells like runes.....and against my instincts yes....the odd summon.....she gets that from Ulda who usually got the Sanguine Rose for really difficult jobs, and I never minded it cos its just a staff as far as Im concerned.


So.....bet that surprised ya ( it did me)

It sounds like the Contessa would really enjoy some high level frenzy spells.

Hope everything is okay for you, Areial.

Your world is in upheaval, Rick! She's taking over!

I don't know where you find the trolls who will sit still while you grind Destruction on them. My experience with trolls is that if they can't get to you, they'll run away and hide out of the line of fire. They're actually quite hard to intentionally kill with a ranged attack for that very reason, let alone using them to spam up a skill.

The way that you play necessitates the grinding, for a short time-limit competition; I don't dispute that at all. But I think there's a kind of difference (as Areial points out above) between grinding and spamming. If you go out and mine the ore, smelt the ore, and forge the 100 daggers, I'll grant that you are practicing the trade of Smithing; it's grinding, but it requires you to actually do something that looks like "working the skill." On the other hand, if you buy 100 iron ingots from the Smith, make a whole batch of daggers, sell them back to the smith to buy more ingots, etc., you are spamming. It's not "cheating" (since it's a game mechanic) but it's cheesy, and I think it's a borderline excursion from the spirit of friendly competition.

Spamming Muffle over and over (it's an Illusion spell, incidentally), when there's no enemy, is just plain exploit, in my view. Illusion goes up plenty fast if you use Muffle as intended, casting the spell when dungeon-crawling, and re-casting when it times out.

Likewise, Candlelight or Magelight are properly used in dark places, and Alteration goes up plenty fast if you do that. Spamming those skills just to raise them, in my opinion, is outside the bounds of friendly competition.

I'm not opposed to anyone doing what is necessary within the rules. But I'd like to point out that the reason I generally choose to play at a lower difficulty is exactly because I don't have the time (or the desire) to spend a lot of time grinding. And I do regard it as a choice that you've made, so I'm not terribly sympathetic to pleas of "I have to do it."

I hear it all the time around here: "I play at Legendary, because Me Tough, so I have to pick a billion flowers for my potions."

Thank you Kane, I'm fine. PM

Glargg

Finding trolls....well for starters trolls amble so slowly that any troll can be targeted and ran from then reapproached....theres four in Labyrinthian outside area. But the best is the one is in the rocky pass on the way to High Hrothgar.....he just stands in the overhang while you sit on the ledge opposite shooting or zapping him. I actually remonstrated with Adella over it cos although just a troll....keep shooting it like two hundred times is just a cruelty.


Mining the ore vs buying ingots as grinding vs spamming. Well thats something of a fine line.....dies it really matter how you came by thr ingots? Buy em, mine the ore,find them in loot,steal them? BTW selling the daggers back nets you almost zilch.....and you have to procure leather too.........also consider how do get the cash to buy 100 ingits....plus smiths only have sround ten at a time...certsinly not huge numbers. Also.....if youve tried to smith by spamming with daggers.....well, its useless after skill 40-50. The rise is impossibly small!


What about alchrmy then? Do you think I can get to master picking the 'odd' mountain flower or butterfly that lands at my feet? No!

I bulid lakeview...make the green house and garden. Get canis from nesr ivsrstead and imp stool in Halldirs Cairn thrn grow my own paralys poisons in batches of 30 at a time ! The only thing I don't do that "I " think is wrong is to then just advance time fir two days to get a fresh stock in like two minutes.


Candkelight raising alteration....really? See i have used it quite a bit and if you only cast it when needed alterstion goes up like one point every now and again...probably like 40 casts.......very much too slow to be any benefit....even spamming it makes hardly any difference...its a novice spell afterall.


Your last comments.....well,I kinda realised you werent sympathetic to Legendary play ideals.....but as I Pointed out my view of adept play is the corollary. Yes it is a choice and no I dont have to do it......but you choose to play adept....regarding it perhaps as the game standard (and therefore somehow I suspect, more proper or "correct" to play on) the fact that you do not require grinding on adept does not make it a "fault" for me to need it on my (chosen) Legendary. The whole reason that improvement IS available, is arguably to support tougher gameplay......Beth could have made adept the ONLY level and not had "improvements" available to players at all eh! Point being...Smithing is there to be done...for a reason! ( but in competition we don't have time to work it up gradually over weeks).


I hear it all the time around here...."me not like crafting...so using it to cope with tougher levels is wrong!"

So....I don't have a lot of sympathy with people NOT LIKING grinding being possible, just because they like to stay on adept !



Tailpiece....about my world being in upheaval......yes.....it is. And you know full well my particular madness. If my plans come to fruition I WILL ANSWER TO HER for all of it.....look at my signature block.

Those boundaries are internal and we are gradually breaking them down


There may come a day my friend when you will no longer find Rick here.....Make the most of me, because she is so much tougher and cogent (albeit prettier) than I