Eh, Areial, I think clarification is needed for whether or not spamming "muffle" is an exploit. Personally, my Illusion skill rises rapidly because I almost always have muffle cast, though I don't "spam" it. Especially in a competition that allows no sneak. I wonder as to muffle truly being an exploit, because if you spam it to get to a hundred skill level very quickly, your enemies are going to rise in level quickly and you will be left with a very poor ability to defend yourself. It's kind of a self-defeating exploit at best, which explains why I don't use it in that manner.

Well, except that with a very high Illusion, you have some pretty powerful crowd control abilities.

But I agree with you, in general, about spam-training non-combat skills. If you're leveling up properly, it raises your enemies, without improving your ability to face them.

I've been using Muffle about the same way you are, when I remember to cast it. I cast it when approaching a new enemy location, as a "preparation for battle." It seems to make my character just sneaky enough to be able to get to a good strategic position before starting the fight.

Neil... I think if one has it in constant use... but re-casting only when the spell dissipates, then it would not be "spamming"...but if one repeatedly casts it before it wear's off then that would be spamming.

Any clarified exploit rules or the clarification for any rule can be put in spoiler tags... I do think they need the clarification.

Because of the way that skills raise... spamming quiet a bit will cause massive skill verses enemy type problems... but still and all it's an exploit.

My apologies for kicking another debate on rules into motion, but I had felt it more reasonable to ask since I wasn't sure if I was being over-sensitive to the "spirit of fair competition" in this case.

While we're enshrining the rules for going forward, how does everyone feel about keeping the one free restart under level 10 rule?

related;

Was also wondering about mods adding extra (balanced) weapons/armour, such as http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/19733/? and the http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/72910/?...I have them disabled for the competition, but a well balanced mod won't allow ebony level equipment with just the steel crafting perk

As I said it isn't a problem, someone would have watched the video's and said something anyway.

I have no issues with the restart under lvl 10 rule... that I think needs a vote.

The only issue I have with Immersive Armors...and the reason I am not using it either.. is the selling price of some of the armors. The Armor Rating is very very close to vanilla, enough that I would have no issues with it...But some of the selling prices are a little out of wack. Dawnguard Arsenal... I don't know, I have it downloaded, but have yet to use it... but in reading it, it sounds like MadCat added some points to the damage the weapons do to Vampires... it's not much but I think may be just enough to be an advantage over vanilla. If some one else could read them and put in their opinion, I would be happy.

And I really love Immersive Armors.

I'll vote yes for one restart under 10. Sometimes an enemy is just too much that early on.

From the competition thread there's been discussion about exploits. But I think a side discussion needs to be had regarding approaches to "competition". I previously approached competition the way I regularly played. That is, level as I went and kind of role play as I went. But, what I found was that in order to compete at Legendary every day play just didn't cut it. I HAD to grind up certain character aspects in order to even survive the most innocuous beasties. Depending on point of view grinding up might be considered an exploit, but from a survivability standpoint at the Legendary difficulty I would say it is almost a 99% of the time must.

So to start off the discussion I would say the Not leveling is an exploit because that isn't what I would call "the spirit" of the competition. However, as previously stated by our own Neildarkstar leveling up muffle quickly has its advantages and disadvantages. One you can indeed get better crowd control, however mobs and bosses are much higher in level and quite deadly. Also, if you even oopsie a little in allocation of Magicka/Health/Stamina you can run out of a much needed resource to cast those higher level spells. And the RNG monster really likes to play havoc during competitions.

Before this becomes a tldr section I'll leave it there and perhaps people can add their thoughts and concerns and we can have a pasteable set of explanations/rules before next competition.

P.S. I must fully admit that my burn out for this competition was because I was playing on Legendary and grinding up to survive. I have made the self realization that doing so is just not my cup o' tea!

Cheers,

Bram

This is why I'm playing on Adept. (Well, that, and uncertainty about having enough playing time to put into "grinding.")

I get no "bragging rights," and probably have no chance of accumulating enough points to win, but I'm having fun.

Bram... not all "grinding" would be an exploit.. for instance... you have to either find the materials or get up the money to buy the materials... to "grind" up smithing. Now if you went and looked for all the materials... mining and such.. more than likely you had to fight... so lvl'd up those kinda skills.. if you bought... you are leveling up speech, but unless you chopped wood forever... you had to do something to earn the gold.

BTW...the reason I don't ( volunteer ) to play at higher lvl's during competition ...the grinding that is needed to get to a skill level needed to survive.. I would burn out quickly.

Glargg....exactly...

Once only "Free restarts" for the under tens with no penalty other than the time already elapsed (where we have a time limitation).......yes I would allow that. Not for me you understand....I'm pretty strict, but since I stay in rags until reaching Whiterun on Legendary with only an iron dagger for company.......well Lets just say I'm not the kind of player who needs a free restart!

(yeah.....c'mon.....I'm waitin' for it ).


Um......non vanilla armours....retextures yes....but anything over an extra 5% on armours or weapons compared to their vanilla equivalents would be unfair. I suspect its very tempting for a mod creator to 'up' the specs a bit so his creation is best. But, I don't mod so I don't know for sure abd I suspect it varies a bit from one mod writer to the next.


While we are at it.....Spamming!


Clearly we need spamming for all crafting activities as has previously been stated theres just not the time available in most rounds to raise a craft sufficiently to be useful without spamming, and at high difficulties those crafts are vital for survival.


But what of lesser skills? Spamming Illusion / sneak / pickpocket / lockpicking et al .....is it wrong?


That's a question for a consensus vote. In terms of fair play, sportsman ship, good form and being cricket....well spamming IS taboo. However, again, there is insufficient time to raise the skills to the point where the good perks come into play and provide a benefit.


Again however, providing we are all singing off the same level bat....its makes no odds really!


Lets talk

I don't see crafting as spamming at all. You can't make a potion without the ingredients, which you either have to collect or purchase. You can't make iron daggers without iron. And you can't enchant without souls.

Those are game mechanics.

Sneaking while dungeon-crawling is game playing. Sneaking for twenty minutes behind someone who is sleeping is spamming.

Casting Muffle to silence your approach to an enemy is game playing. Casting muffle repeatedly, while standing in the middle of Whiterun in broad daylight, is spamming.

Healing yourself after damage taken while fighting, or from a trap, is game playing. Healing yourself continuously while standing in a fire is spamming.

I personally tend to think of repeated crafting as "grinding," which I find tedious. But I don't consider it an abuse of game mechanics.

here's the thingy about spamming...grinding... which ever... it doesn't need to be done at default difficulty level's... it does at Legendary and to a lesser extent Master.

So what's the difference.. in an exploit, like healing as you are standing in flame ( which to me IS an exploit ) and casting muffle over and over again, before the spell dissipates? None... to my way of thinking... now IF you are allowing the spell to dissipate ( 180 seconds ) then recasting it might be spamming, but not an exploit.

All the craft's require ingredients... those have to be gathered or bought... that of course takes time... takes some kind of skill to not die.. unless one is chopping wood only to make money to buy... So to me as long as one is not exploiting wood chopping to make money to buy ingredients.. then "spamming" the making of "insert smithed items/potion/ enchanted item"... then that is not an exploit.

IMO

I agree and kinda look at things differently when putting on my "competition" hat. Here's what I ask myself:

1. What is the goal of the competition. For all DiD, not getting deaded. The current DiD is to complete the DG quests and the other ones that were listed.

2. How does one win this kind of competition when: Due to the random role one must work within the skills drawn. Speech/Lockping go up, but cannot be perked. This means income is greatly reduced and greater time/player skill is required to make chests worthwhile to even open. To overcome the lower revenue from selling and not "waste" time (clock is ticking). Chopping some wood helps fill in the gaps (I'm not saying chop for 10 in games day straight or anything, just enough to get that little extra cash to buy that one item that is finally available).

3. With regards to muffle, limited magicka at the start and little gear mean one won't be able to spam it unless they spend time waiting for the magicka recharge and "waste" precious time that is ticking away. Also, refer to Neil's discussion on spamming muffle in the competition thread.

Finally, here's what I like about our fun competitions. Everyone approaches them differently. Everyone ends up with different experiences and when they share them I am always amazed. I like the challenge of survival with the limited scope more than actually the getting to the end of all quests and sayin' I did it (regardless of score). I like this because there's just something about puzzling over a situation with limited skills, management of finite resources that generates the excitement and fun. To see how each of you overcame similar/same obstacles is what I live for in this competition.

So, I think I'll start a Zombie (Tal is too tired to adventure out of the Bannered Mare or too drunk ), but instead of Legendary I think I'll drop down to Expert and just do what I enjoy (which is basically a lot less grinding and more asking myself, do you REALLY want to go into that cave?).

Bram...I pretty much agree... and won't split hair's... Tal as Zombie? or another character altogether? let me know and I'll add it in.

And before anyone has a hissy-fit... I am not knocking those that play on Legendary... I do admire the tenacity & skill it takes to play well at that difficulty. It's a preference, that I choose not...to choose. Each to their own...

We need to come up with a good set of rules... What is grinding on Legendary ...what is an exploit on Novice.... Letting a mudcrab attack the PC on Legendary and healing themselves... doing the same thing on Novice... is one simply grinding or spamming and the other an exploit... cause a Mudcrab can kill a lvl 1 PC on Legendary...if one is not very careful...on Novice...it takes a bit more.

So... I hope that's a good enough example to show what I mean... what is the difference...and what is the difference on the different difficulties... we have mostly just relied on the "honor system" in the past.

This was why I asked, it's been a while since I got through much of Immersive armours....but I see the reasoning and it'll stay out of my load order in any competitions

Dawnguard Arsenal was just an example chosen since i'd recently downloaded it and dawnguard round....but I would agree that particular mod would perhaps be unfair due to the damage increase and extra undead focused spells that aren't available vanilla. Perhaps a better example would have been immersive weapons? Either way I assume there will always be issues along the lines of higher/lower armour ratings/septim value making such things unfair in the competition so again, i'll stick with just retextures

I'll vote in favour of the level 10 restart rule, since I (and anyone else really) can be prone to a total fluff up at low levels

Grinding....in competition with a limited time frame is necessary to become survivable. However, I agree that taking advantage of certain mechanics to exploit the potential for rocketing a skill up (standing in flames and healing, continuous muffling in city centre, fast travel with telekinesis, etc) is poor form and doesn't really have any place in a competition played in good faith. It would be akin to glitching through a wall on COD or Halo in online play so that you could shoot others but they could not shoot you. VIABLE, but not fair play. (same goes for holding back on leveling, but that horse is long dead and well flogged)

One thing I'd like to mention is simply this... We do away with a lot of mods to try and keep the competition fair. Why is it not fair to use a mod that places uber weapons in game? Well, simply the fact that people on consoles are unable to do the same, right? If they could add in whatever mods they want, would it still be unfair? I think the answer lies somewhere in the leveling of the playing field, eh?

I mean, even among PC players, mods are wildly different, some making the game easy, and others making it hard, but I doubt that any of us has exactly the same load order, o a level playing field with mods is a bit moot.

However, that being said, grinding skills or even spamming things like illusion is not something that everybody, PC pr console can't do if they so choose. I don't really see a lack of fairness in grinding and spamming perse, just a question of what individuals see as good gaming and sportsmanship. Me, I have plenty of time to play, and I could do a hundred or so hours in a couple of weeks easily. In other words I have time to putter along casting muffle in a continuous but non-spamming manner.

the person who can only play for two or three hours a day will likely take three weeks to even get to the point where they might feel confident starting Dimhollow. I can certainly understand the impulse to spam for those players, and honestly I don't see it as particularly unfair. Anybody who wants to or has reason to do so can do exactly the same thing.

I was looking at some time estimates for Dawnguard, and the average seems to be about 8.5 hours for those who rush through, and up to 20 hours or a little bit more for the completionists who don't dawdle but don't rush either. I figure for me, that means I can start Dawnguard with 30 hours or so left out of the hundred. I can spend 70 hours character building before ever touching the questline. In that amount of time and without spamming I can have most of my primary skills at expert level or better with a couple maybe even at 100.

But where does that leave the guy with 50 hours or less out of the month for total playtime? He gets 30 hours (if no restarts) to build a character that is viable for the questline, and I can see a need for that guy to do some spamming in the simple name of fair play.

Just sayin' eh?

Neil... that's a good point... and I'll give you my answer .

Because of my limited time, I choose to play on Adept, I could have gone lower to make it even easier to have a "viable" character... but I have.. more than once... I did mention did I not that DG is my favorite quest-line??? Went through Dim Hollow at lvl 10- 15...with a warrior ( as that is what I generally play ) with no issues and no death's. I have generally completed the whole quest-line....slooooooowly.. by lvl 25-30

Tyler just made lvl 7.. he lack's lvl 8 by 1/2 the bar... soon as he get's that he will have 1 perk in each of the 7 skills he is using. ( I choose 1h ...he may use 2h, but I won't perk it ). Then I will concentrate on the perk's that make the most difference ( to me ) at lower lvl's. By lvl 10 or 12 he will start the DG line and head to Dim Hollow. He is at the college right now, as I want the gift of 10 scrolls... which will offset his lower lvl'd magic.. then Lyd's will be traded for Belrand...who will use magic and sword... Tyler is now wearing mostly superior Steel armor ( thank's to a found potion ). From Winterhold he will go to Solitude, then to Windhelm to pick up the Atronach Stone.

Now I could grind...spam my way to a higher lvl... but why? To run into higher level enemies? umm yeah...NO. I could have played a less cautious game on Aprentice or Novice, but Adept and Expert are my "comfort zone"...so that is where I play.

Edit: AccidentalNinja ... it's the reason I play almost vanilla ( except Textures and enviornment )... it's easier than figuring it all out. The "Barbarian" armor is my favorite male...light armor...

Oh, I understand completely, but... thats your answer and if it's good for you, then why should anybody question it? But what about somebody like Rick or Sah (or usually myself) who is comfortable with a much more dangerous game. Suppose one of us had a total of thirty to 50 hours available for play in a month? I suspect that if I found Master boring (and expert pretty much more so) a person like Rick or Sah might not even bother... but the time constraint would then become the major issue, if you see what I mean.

I deleted my rambling discourse in favor of simply agreeing with glargg. You said it perfectly. Next time I will read the whole thread before I try to reply!

I’d be fine with adding the above to the rules rather than trying to pin down every exploit.

Well I do understand...2 part's...

1. The update I could find ( quickly ) that Sah did... 10 hr's, lvl 13... highest skill Illusion 42.. Tyler 10 hr's lvl 7 highest skill 1h 33.. I pretty much don't think Sah would have an issue finishing the quest-line...at Legendary in 50 hr's or less ( NO Sah that isn't a challenge...lol )... Pretty sure Rick could as well....if he wanted to. It would be hard..but.

2. If lower difficulties is boring... and time is to limited ... add in mod's that make the game more dangerous... D.D., IC, Enemy Enhancer, ASIS... as long as the "toggles" are not set so NPC's and followers are essential.. I would not call making the game harder with a set of mods against the rules. The rules say you can't use a mod that gives the player an advantage. So... you could go down to Novice and crank UP the sliders on D.D and IC...add in EH...and let the cookies crumble.

Of course to much errrr enhancing and ya might find you have to grind at Novice... Just because I play at Adept... does not mean my game is by any mean's easy. Now for competition I don't add those in... because with my limited time ..it's just to much to worry about... I like a challenge, but not mod suicide.

WOW ... lots of stuff happens when I'm at work LOL

This is the first time I've played with ya'll so I'm good with whatever you do. This will sound stupid but I don't even know what some of it means. I figured if I don't get it, I'm probably not doing it. Like the fortify/resto looping that's listed in the rules. No idea of what that even is. Same with follower/trainer exploit. No idea there either. So I will follow what ever you all think is best regarding that stuff.

I think everyone seems to like the restarting rule and it keeps folks engaged and interested. I'm good with it.

Armor/weapons mods and such? They don't personally bother me so whatever you decide there is fine unless they are WAY out of wack. If things do sell for more than what console players can get then all we can ask is that during competition you don't sell those things.

I think it's important to keep it all as fun for everyone as possible. I don't have a lot of time to play myself, but that shouldn't penalize those who do either. So if someone can sit and do smithing for a good chunk of time and I can't then I just have to work on something else. Make sense?


Anyway I'm good with what ever you all come up with. Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Ooooooh......look at all that discourse in just a few hours!


Well firstly heres my definition of what constitutes spamming.


"Any action performed repeatedly for the sole intention of raising a skill and is not of benefit for the immediate gameplay"


So crafting 100 Dwarven bows that are not required for use and their sale is merely a useful by product IS spamming.

Crafting 1500 potions of which maybe 150 are used and 500 sold and most are dumped IS spamming.

Same for enchanting 1000 daggers you have no intention of using, beyond selling I guess.....its spamming.

I don't think the fact that you have to amass a little pile of resource goodies before commencing the spam is terribly relevant.

(I build the lakeview greenhouse and harvest sack loads of ingredients)

BUT.......as has been stated on Legendary its practically a survival requirement and I have no issue with that!


I do not normally spam ( by my definition above) non crafting skills in any gameplay.......maybe ten points of sneak at a push....but very rarely. However, I do not object to spamming for those who like it.......especially in time restricted competition play. I find the spamming process boring in the extreme. I mean how long did he stand in that forge just to get a few restoration points.....I'd rather be fighting!



Exploits.....sadly some people will exploit every potential loop hole that is not specifically sealed in words of one syllable. They probably do not see anything wrong in that, but its darn sure they won't ask to be told NO either. If the rules do not say they forbid it....they will exploit it. This as a slightly irksome point for me.

So....I won't point fingers or start an argument.....but I won't do any more x country races because of people doing blatent exploiting of gaps in the rules and similarly, not levelling up deliberately, to take advantage of easier foes is a blatant exploit of a rule gap.....I mean its not like we have not all worked out the obvious benefit of doing so....so clearly theres a good reason we don't ALL show up at level one in our reported stats. Its because we all KNOW its an exploit. Clearly now we must simply SAY so in the rulesThe question is......what other unwritten exploits are there? We have to get our thinking caps on and try to work out how to exploit every advantage so we can block it leaving just fair gameplay available!


Heres another one for you.......listening Areial?.......the advancing time by 24 hours to keep firing once a day powers.

Also....If we had alchemy you could advance two days in a minute or so to harvest fresh alchemy ingredients and spam it up super fast....(no I have not pulled that one either....but someone might! ).

Similarly monkeying with the time rate in the Console command OR using a mod to do it....giving lots more daylight to fight by!!!


Theres also an exploit to do with "Sightless Pit" which involves keep taking coin from the same dead skeketon over and over.....look it up on Wiki.......

tbh.......thinking about all this.....I am having second thoughts about getting underway. Sah can thrash my butt fair n'square.....(and she does so regularly ) I don't mind that....in fact I expect it. But she is always a straight combatant and honourable rival gladiatorix.

Rick... yes those are exploit's... and when brought to my attention I did say something about it. I won't say the abuse was deliberate...because I don't know it was...but from that point onward.. either the exploit is stopped or the point's don't count...towards the win...simple. We all play in the spirit of the rules, without them all being typed out... because we have been playing the games long enough to know them.. others might not. Which is why I suggested a list of rules.. that way in the future their will be no issues.

I know. And I know that you know, But Others need to know that I know that you know. Because I don't want anybody not knowing what you know about what I know. I mean just knowing that, and assuming we all know it equally would be an ignorance on my part.


If you know what I mean.......

... oh now see... I think I'm gonna go read a book.