However just speaking from a neutral standpoint in this disscussion, the MWBOS are traitors of traitors so to speak (the whole reason they got sent to the West was because the brotherhood elders wanted to get rid of them). So it could be that the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" addage may have come into play there.

I'm not yet sure if I like the Enclave/MWBOS meeting theory yet though.

No no, they aren't stealing from MB. They're going to Chicago, because the pre-war, commercial armor may have been manufactured there. They're the omniscient Enclave, they'd know the best locations for pre-war tech. I'm assuming their best models were wiped out at Poseidon, so Autumn is left to find replacements. Or there was a large, Enclave presence in Chicago, who used the same pre-war armor the MB found. These Enclave were cut off from Richardson's Enclave, and they never developed the advance power armor. The long-isolated, Chicago group realize their duty to Autumn's new President, and all but a few move, the armor going to DC. At Raven Rock, the Chicago Enclave's armor developed into the Hellfire design.

There were no Enclave outside of the ENCLAVE and Navarro, confirmed by Richardson. In any event your suggesting that the Enclave maintain an outpost in Chicago which had enough people to survive over 150 years? Then there would be no need to send people from Navarro to Raven Rock would there? Besides, most of the people at Navarro were wearing power armour.

So what your suggesting is that the Enclave in Chicago sent power armour for 30 years to those in D.C. how? Bearing in mind that the CWBoS knew nothing of the Enclave in the region.

too bad there was never a court marshall or even NJP to get tot he bottom of it, which in turn would have exposed the govt as traitors for conducting unethical and unconstitutional testing on subjects.

as for he MWBoS being traitors of traitors.... when your superior officers "get rid of you" thats not being a traitor. Thats them sending you away somewhere.
Ahhh good old T.A.D.

He also refuited their connection to the US Army and, therefore, the pre-war world; so how are they traitors? It's just propaganda, Eden would call everyone traitors if it aided his point.

The BOS officially declared themselves in rebellion against the United States right before the Great War began. Eden wasn't the one to declare them rebels, they did that themselves. Therefore they technically are "traitors," since if a U.S. army unit did that today, they would be called as such. I doubt they would calls themselves traitors, but the Enclave could certainly refer to them as that, since they effectively deserted right before the onset of a major crisis.

The Brotherhood was formed after the War by deserter soldiers, Eden refutes them having any connection with the pre-war world, Don’t be fooled by their pseudo-knightly nonsense or supposed connections to the United States Army. The original members happened to desert from the US Army, the BoS has zero connection with it and by calling them traitors in this way is admitting to them as citizens of the United States of America.

Ah I see what you are saying now and it does make sense. They're not really traitors because the they've been independent for quite some time now and no longer associate with the United States. In other words, it would be like citizens from Britian today calling citizens of the United States traitors, it doesn't really hold water anymore.

How about "decendents of U.S. Army traitors" then?

The Midwestern Brotherhood don't know about the Enclave. They left before the events of Fallout 2 and have had no contact with the original knowledge hoarding brotherhood for 80 years.

Some Enclave left Navarro to go to DC. Since there is no Advanced PA in Fallout 3 I take that as a sign they did not take any with them. I know some say "they recycled them." I think that is total crap since the armour they had in Fallout 2 was head and shoulders above the armour in Fallout 3.

Enclave stopped in Chicago. Chicago is the Midwestern Brotherhood's back yard. I doubt that the Enclave remnants were able to set up a outpost without a meeting taking place between the two factions. I doubt the remnants could destroy the Midwestern Brotherhood. They couldn't even take back the capital building from stupid super mutants. I doubt they could do much against people armed with .50 cal machine guns and backed up by http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth_(robot) and a number of other types of http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Tactics_robots_and_computers.

I would see the Enclave as remnants moving across the country as more open to bending their views toward mutants; more so when surrounded by an army.

Gameplay mechanics plain and simple; I think that the idea that the majority of the Enclave forces (whom you claimed were acting on emergency orders from Richardson) crossing the wasteland with no power armour is equally as absurd, implausable and down-right silly to suggest.



Well they had no interest in taking the Capitol Building, they had three men there, what is there in the freaking Capitol of any significance?

Ok you need to get over that part. Just because I feel that the Enclave did not know about Eden does not mean my idea can't happen. It does not matter if they knew about Eden or not.

It doesn't matter if they talked to Eden on speaker phone every step of the way to DC. When you are surrounded by an army, you're not going to turn down a chance at peace. I doubt the Enclave are that ignorant. If a Midwesten Brotherhood Elder was willing to make a deal to save the lives of your men.. you would take it.



Sure they weren't trying to take the capital building. They were just doing some training :rolleyes:

It has nothing to do with that, your saying that the majority of the Enclave whom left Navarro to go on the couple of thousand mile trek did so in basic uniforms or combat armour; I find that a silly reason for them then aquiring the Brotherhood's Power Armour, if not just something implausable from any standpoint.

Ok then I will admit they had to have some suits of PA with them, but not enought to fight off the Midwestern BoS. What happened to those suits, I have no idea. I doubt they took all the suits Navarro had, after all some stayed at Navarro and they needed suits as well and Navarro was mostly civilians. They also had combat Armour at Navarro.


Anyways..

Midwestern Brotherhod under Barnaky end up Falling apart. A failed coup, sabotage, purges, decimation, desertion, settlement revolts and attacks against an enemy they helped create all combine to cause the downfall of the Midwestern Brotherhood. Decades fighting a losing war against the MLA and other factions, raiders, slavers and so on, cause them to fall back to strongholds across the Midwestern United States.

One Stronghold being the area around Chiago, the birth place of the Midwestern BoS (After they crashed there that is). They have been there for decades and should know every inch of it.

Enclave remnants from Navarro led by Augustus Sir, stop to make a relay station/out post. They are then surrounded by the Midwestern Brotherhood. BoS don't attack because they want the tech and they people behind it. They can't risk shooting them and killing them all. Even if they do capture any Enclave there is no guarantee those they take will help or even know about the Tech. Enclave out numbered can still do alot of damage. Midwestern BoS don't hate people and they are open to making deals and trading. They arn't knowledge hoarders.

Enclave under Augustus has to make the call. Fight these people or take their deal. Which is to leave some men behind to help make weapons and armour and other tech for the BoS so they can turn the tide against the MLA. Augustus was going to leave men behind anyways. Also they learn there is an army of mutants out there. Enclave need time to set up shop in DC and once again work on their plan to "take over the WORLD!" Helping these people stop this advancing mutant army will give the Enclave time. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend." Eden might as well be on the darkside of the Moon, he can't help Augustus in this Mexican Standoff.

The Deal is made and the Enclave move on to DC and the Midwestern BoS get some help. Once Enclave get but kicked again they have no where left to turn. No place to go to rebuld and try for a third time to take over the world. So the remnants become one with he Midwestern BoS.

I should probably have cleared up that the only reason I dislike your idea is because of my own personal bias; I really can't find any flaw in it. The only reason I ever contested it was because it related to your Enclave "die-hards" thing which I don't agree woth and both revolved somewhat around the Enclave at Navarro being ignorant of Eden; which I also would contest greatly.

Even if they knew about Eden, Eden can't do anything to help the remnants from Navarro other then sending them oudated info about where there might be supplies. Maybe Eden was the reason they ended up in Chicago, the reason they walked into a Midwestern BoS ambush. Eden is giving info about pre-war America. He has no idea what the location is now like, only that there was supplies there pre-war.

Enclave are patient people. If they can do things without fighting they take it. A like minded group welcomes them with open arms, I can't see them turning them down. "Well we got our butts handed to us once agian. Your offer of becoming a part of your group and a power base is tempting but we decided we are going to find a nice hole to crawl into and die, thanks "

What would be wrong with life in an un-opened Vault? Probably better than anything they've known in their entire lives.

I don't want any more un-opened Vaults. Enough already with them! The Originals made it clear that Vault 13 was the only one left unopened. Then Bethesda ripped that off and made Vault 101. Why have Vaults closed for so damn long? No more un-opened Vaults, it is just getting stupid.

If they do find a vault opened or not, it is just a hole for them to die in. Not saying some would not pick that over siding with Midwestern BoS. If the Midwestern BoS said. "Here is a bunker/vault for you. It should have everything you need. If it doesn't we will find it. All we ask is you help make weapons and armour for our war against the Mutants/scum of this world. Your leaders will even become Elders"

Would you really turn down that offer?

Yeah pretty much. :shrug:

The group at the capital building is like what, three guys and a deathclaw? Are there any in the capital building? No. They also don't usually get involved in the battle between Talon and the Mutants, except when the battle strays towards them. Its more observation than anything.

They also have a vertibird for what appears to be a quick escape if thats any indication of their intentions.

Also when you say "The Enclave couldn't handle the MWBOS with its robots" you are assuming that the Barnaky ending is canon. Its very possible that its not (even though I hope it is).



Doesn't have to be a vault which was part of Project safehouse. It could just be a government COG bunker. Whats the harm in that?

The lack of numbers to sustain a population.

True, but even if they can't sustain a population forever, it might be better for them to die off as true-blue Enclave soldiers in a government bunker rather than assimliate into the MWBOS or NCR or what have you. Almost poetic in way.

No, but if the Enclave do have MB armor, then the lore's been changed. As you point out, there's little chance a meeting could make sense, unless both sides die. I'm prepared to wave this as game mechanics; I have. But I'd also like to think of ways Enclave could have the armor, which aren't so boring as 'Emil had his head up his butt'.


No, about 30-ish years. At least until ED-E was sent. I suggested a large, Enclave presence, isolated from Richardson's influence, in Chicago. Perhaps many of the civilians and para-military. That explains why the hypothetical Enclave would use the civilian, pre-war model as their basic design.


Eh? No, I'm suggesting Autumn took most of Chicago's Enclave east, including the armor. He left an outpost behind.

Given the nature of the Project requiring a vaccination - which hadn't been administered when the Enclave was destroyed - I wouldn't say that Richardson sent the Enclave to Chicago; rather that Autumn Senior left them there on his way to D.C. - for whatever purpose. Richardson confirms that only the ENCLAVE and Navarro existed at that point.

So you don't think there's much of a chance Bethesda's changed the old, internal time-line, to include an autonomous cell?

I don't assume it is the canon ending. I just hope it is. I have been thinking about it for years. Out of all the endings the Barnaky one I like the most. When I learned that "They have fallen on hard times." My thoughts went into over drive. Out of all the endings what could cause the downfall of the Midwestern BoS? Every ending even the one where the BoS let the Calculaor die still plays out ok for humans. The only one that IMO that could cause the downfall is the Barnaky Ending.

If they find any place to call home after the events of Fallout 3 such as a vault or COG bunker, it would just be a place for them to go and die, to live out their days hating the world, till the BoS under Lyons finally catches up with them.

But Autum and Eden really didn t see eye to eye if fo3. Autum would have been the one the meet the mid west bos, who may not even consider themselves bos anymore.

They are their own people (depending on the ending) Autum isn t a computer, he just watched the Enclave s best chance get blown up.

He would try to gain strength. He didn t ever really seem to care for Eden.

Mid west bos may just be a large group with a slave army, some bad ass robots, and a tank. Autum will make human decisions, not computer decisions like Eden IMO.