That's not evil, that's just kind of a jerky thing to do.

I could to that in 3 and NV (I think. I don't remember if there were caravans that actively roamed around in NV) as well.

I could do half of that in New Vegas and 3 and in 3 I could actively enslave people and sell them to slavers.

Face it, 3 and New Vegas had more quest options to do far worse things than 4 does. That's not an opinion that's an objective fact. In Fallout 4 my "evil" character is a jerk. In Fallout 3 and New Vegas were unquestionably evil people.

What's your point? It's still a terrible game.

Nah 4 actually does have more evil and questionable stuff you can do. and hate to break it to you but yes, being evil means you're a jerk and squeezing caps out of someone can be seen as a bad thing to do. I can go on and on with more examples but it's going to end with you going "Nope, doesn't count" it's pretty pointless. Do your own damn research, the wiki is an excellent place to start.

You're bargaining. I don't see that as evil. You're trying to make the best deal possible.

You could raid in older Fallout games.

You could blow up settlements in older Fallout games making that settlement gone.

None of those come close to the Legion or even The Enclave ( Who's one dimensional )

Can I go into Diamond City and make anyone a slave? Can I ruin their whole life because of what I did? Can I release the virus on Vault 81's residents. Bethesda really missed a great evil option on this one.

You can't actually be serious. Do you actually need me to give you the list of every horrible thing you can do in Fallout 3 and New Vegas? Because I will. This isn't a "just your opinion" situation, you are legitimately wrong.

Let me give you a couple examples before you decide whether or not I need to shove the facts in your face:

-Crucify someone

-Burn someone alive

-Help an entire faction of sixist slavers and rapists who actively treat women and little girls worse than dogs, torture people, crucify people, burn people alive, strip people of their cultures and force men of the tribes they conquer to fight as soldiers take over the Mojave wasteland

-Nuke an entire settlement because it's ruining an old man's view

-poison the entirety of the capital wasteland with a modified FEV virus

Do you REALLY need me to continue? There is no debating here, you can objectively do far worse things in Fallout 3 and NV than you can in 4.

I played 3, I played New Vegas, I played 4, I know what the hell I'm talking about whereas you submit to obvious bias viewpoints and ignore facts, I'm not making it into a "just your opinion" situation and no, I'm not wrong. There is a lot of evil/bad stuff you can do in Fallout 4 and you willingly ignore any facts people give you about Fallout 4, you even said so.

The only person here who is making it about their opinions and not facts is YOU, pal. Not me.


Cool guess what! That in no way invalidates ANY of the points I made, I know this may blow your mind but yea, you're not right. Every point I made is still valid in being evil, every point I made is not suddenly "not evil" because you can do worse things in the previous games. All the games have evil things you can do in them and just because it's not in your face about it and you have to actually apply thought to your actions doesn't make your actions "good" or any crap like that. There is still a VERY long list of bad things you can do in Fallout 4 and this, once again, furthers my point you don't know a damn thing you're talking about and submit to obvious bias viewpoints.

Seriously, all you're doing is waving your hand with no valid counter arguments.

The only one who's ignoring facts right now is you. I just listed a sample of the things you can do in two of the previous games that are objectively worse than anything you can do in Fallout 4. Here's the list once again:

-Crucify someone

-Burn someone alive

-Help an entire faction of sixist slavers and rapists who actively treat women and little girls worse than dogs, torture people, crucify people, burn people alive, strip people of their cultures and force men of the tribes they conquer to fight as soldiers take over the Mojave wasteland

-Nuke an entire settlement because it's ruining an old man's view

-poison the entirety of the capital wasteland with a modified FEV virus

Those^ are just a few of the horrible atrocities you can commit in the quests of two previous titles. Like I said, it is a fact that you can do far worse things in 3 and NV than you can in 4. The sample I listed alone proves that and that isn't even a complete list.

I can list more if you'd like. Though I suspect you plan on ignoring those as well.

There is nothing preventing you from not following one of those predefined roles. Leave Preston and his cronies to die by never visiting the Museum of Freedom. Wiping out the leadership of the Railroad, Institute, and Brotherhood. Or just build a settlement of your own and leave the Commonwealth to its own devices.

I believe that Cider was making a point about Fallout 4 allowing more evil than the family-friendly reputation it gets not a competition between which game that can do the most evil. Obviously, Fallout 4 will never come close to Fallout 3 in terms of evil with destroying Megaton, enslaving children to a bunch of ruthless slavers, and committing genocide on a bunch of settlers by contaminating the drinking water, but it does allow a certain amount of evil.

Fallout 4's evil is being a jerk. That isn't evil. Not even close.

Sure there is some bad stuff you can do but Bethesda for whatever reason took the real evil out of this game.

To be fair if you side with the MM it could argued you're just defending yourself.

Yea I get it, you hate having to actually comprehend your actions, you want your handheld and be told what you're doing is evil instead of just taking your actions into account. Once again you have failed to make any real argument or counter points to my points, you just wave your hand and say "doesn't count" because it ruins your point and shows you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

This, once again, just shows how bias you are that you refuse to acknowledge facts and literally make it around your own opinion while trying to say "but you're the one making it about opinions!" but no, I'm actually using this thing called facts.


No, it's not "simply being a jerk" a lot of it is generally being a bad person. There is plenty of evil you can do in this game you just have to think and not expect your hand to be held and have the game tell you "SEE THIS THING? IT'S BAD, YOU'RE BAD IF YOU DO IT!"

You said you can do worse things in Fallout 4 than you could in 3 and NV. I gave you the evidence as to why you were wrong. If you're so right then give the evidence that proves me wrong.

It's funny, what you're accusing me of doing is exactly what you're doing right now. I've made a valid argument and you're avoiding it. Stop being a hypocrite and make a counter argument as to why I'm wrong on this.

So tell me, what can you do in Fallout 4 that is worse than the following sample:

-Crucify someone
-Burn someone alive
-Help an entire faction of sixist slavers and rapists who actively treat women and little girls worse than dogs, torture people, crucify people, burn people alive, strip people of their cultures and force men of the tribes they conquer to fight as soldiers take over the Mojave wasteland
-Nuke an entire settlement because it's ruining an old man's view
-poison the entirety of the capital wasteland with a modified FEV virus

No, Cider was literally saying that you could do worse things in 4 than you can in 3 and NV, which is incorrect. Yeah you can do bad stuff in 4, but not anywhere near the levels of 3 and NV.

Ok so can I release the mole rat virus on Vault 81 residents? That's pretty evil. Not bad but evil. The most you can do is do bad things that consider you a jerk.

Yes fallout 4 is watered down, it's an open world shooter looter with little regard to sensible world building or plot. It's full of companions that'll love you for picking locks. It's also riddled with radiant random busy work, and many robots are now sentient beings apparently.

Many of the perks are either boring or not very plausible, like why can I suddenly breath under water. The level gating also funnels most builds to just take some useful perks and be done with it.

Aiming in vats is only tied to PER so any charachter fresh out of the vault can be a crack shot with any weapon.

There is little choice and consequence... And I could go on, but it doesn't matter.

Ignoring the whole "enslaving/eradicating a sentient spices" or "replacing humans with replicates."

Nope, don't see anything evil here.

Point is, evil isn't all twirling mustaches and cackling laughs.

There is evil a way to be Fallout 4. Depending on how you view the Institute they are a evil faction that use slavery and treat those above ground as lab rats, selling the ghoul kid into slavery is pretty evil, being a bigot to ghouls and synths and killing none hostile NPCs. I don't consider selling drugs or asking for money as evil or even being a jerk. It's a wasteland money is a must if you want to survive

Personally I never play evil. My characters are mercenaries at the worse doing jobs for money but there is usually a line evil he won't cross and always side with a good faction in the end or at the very least one with good intentions like the Railroad or BoS.

Of course it's an RPG, and it suffers from the same problem that every CRPG has had since the Bard's Tale, in that people who haven't quite thought it through.think that somehow, a PC or console should just know what they're personally thinking, and then just magically add it to the storyline.

Seek, and ye shall find....

No chance of any confirmation bias in there, is there?

To be fair, while you can't do evil things nearly on level you can in Fallout 3 and NV, you can still do evil things in Fallout 4. For example:

-Letting a kid die

-Helping enslave a sentient race (Depending on your view of Synths)

It's not evil on the level you can be in 3 and NV, but it's still evil.

Yeah, the whole majority thinks it's good or majority thinks it's bad argument doesn't really hold much ground. Like I said, it seems about 50/50 tbh. Though we'll never know for sure.

I don't see Synths as humans. So I don't consider that evil. They're machines walking around not people. Now with Fallout 3 making little kids slaves feels like you're evil.

I'd argue that there's more than enough evidence to prove they're sentient, but that's your opinion I guess so fair enough.

Btw mods, remember to lock the thread this time. You guys let it go to 11 pages on another thread

You don't necessary have to be human to free will they can just be their own sentient race.

If your calculator came alive would you consider that alive? If you can reprogram it and make it believe anything you want?

Doesn't matter if you think it is evil. The Railroad thinks enslaving them is evil. The Brotherhood thinks their creators are evil. So, by default, siding with the Institute is "being" evil. At least as far as the pixelated AIs are concerned.

This "argument" about "evil" and "ethics" has been bloody awful and utterly pointless.

I hope you're all proud of yourselves for being so unintelligibly boring.

True, but you could argue that the Institute is the best hope for humanity as well. One of the biggest things that Bethesda got right in my opinion is that all of Fallout 4's factions (Besides the Minutemen) are morally grey. The Institute is dark grey, but they are still grey.