Hello everyone. I have a bit of a question for people who know more about the Dwemer than I do (which is a lot of you guys). Now, I can go with the idea that Kagrenac's plan was to have the entire race be absorbed into the skin of Numidium. It's just grand enough to fit the character. However, I have a few questions about the methods and results.

1: Is there any flesh on the bones of how he planned on using the tools to do it? Obvioulsy there is more than one way to go about using the Heart as shown during the course of Morrowind's main quest.
2: Several sources claim that other sources claim (already a bit dubious now, eh?) that OTHER Dwemer geniuses thought Kagrenac's plans were too risky, that catastrophic failure could occur. Is there any way of gauging as a certainty whether Kagrenac succeeded or failed? It's almost impossible to tell just by looking, because if Kagrenac succeeded the Dwemer as a mortal race vanish. However, if he failed the result outside-looking-in would be the same.
3: The answer to this may be dependent on the other two. What of the Dwemer who were far away, specifically from Hammerfell? In any event, they vanished as well, but under what circumstances?

As Lorkhan was the one who brought about the Divine Pact, I believe Kagrenac was able to use Lorkhan's heart to reverse the process, reverting the Dwemer into divine flesh, focused onto a construct of his own making.

Edit: As for HOW he did it, it involved Wraithguard, Sunder, and Keening.
[/Captain Obvious]


He was trying to turn his entire race into divine flesh. There are a lot of ways to screw up such a drastic and risky procedure. Kagrenac succeeded for the most part, but in the end, Numidium was left without its heart. There is a theory that Yagrum was meant to place the heart in Numidium, but in any case, the heart quickly became contested.


I believe those on Hammerfell also were affected by Kagrenac's actions. Only Yagrum, who was far, far away in an Outer Realm, was unaffected.

I figured he used the tools somehow, being they're named after him, but since the Tribunal's and Dagoth Ur's use of them didn't vanish the Dunmer I would think they weren't doing what he was doing. Or maybe Sotha Sil is just really good at fine-tuning.

That would explain why he was in an outer realm, specifically to avoid being svcked in.

Thanks for the quick response.

If they were trying to become the hide and seek champions, they sure succeeded.

Serious question though, how did it work on the dwarves in Morrowind and Hammerfell, but no other elves? They weren't different enough from the other elves genetically that they would be left untouched.

Either the existing difference was sufficient, or they were targeted in another way. Possibly through Kagrenac's own perceptions of what is "Dwemer".

Also, weren't the Dwemer telepathically connected somehow? Maybe he used their mind link to svck them all in through him, then go himself/the massive feedback of power echoing through his body and mind killed them all?

Yes, I believe it is a possibility that the supposed telepathic connection could have been how they were transcended.

Seems the most likely answer to the logistics of turning an entire race into a single meta-entity.

That's only because you associate genetics with identity. Rather then say skin colour, religion or a particular observance of the Convention.

Those are all easy things to change. Skin color changes whenever they get sunburned or a daedra has a bowel movement, religion changes as often as they change their pants, and getting people to agree on the observance of the convention isn't going to happen. Those are three weak ways of identifying people for use as god's skin cream.

And for telepathy, I wouldn't mind that answer if there was a quote about it. Though if they were telepathically linked, I think the dissent would have split or done something to avoid their part in it. Soul trap themselves and have a necromancer ward them.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chimarvamidium

I like the telepathic theory because it shows that even before transcending, the Dwemer had the desire to be one.

And lo and behold, the actions of three chimer result in the whole race becoming Dunmer. Such "weak ways of identifying people" are exactly the ways that are important for this kind of thing.

On the original topic: Vivec says that he cannot sense the presence of the Dwemer. Assuming he's telling the truth (and he does not seem to be deceptive when he speaks to the Nerevarine in his temple), then if Kagrenac did succeed in uniting the souls of the Dwemer with the Numidium, he did ended up decimating everything about them that Vivec could recognize as conspicuously "Dwemer."

Huh, that is true. But like you said, since we don't know if he was in this instance lying or telling the truth, we can't really tell what that means. There are quite a few possibles:

1: As you said, the Dwemer were so radically changed by the transformation that anything recognizable as Dwemer, spiritually, physically and mentally, was gone.
2: Kagrenac Failed, and the Dwemer all died for real, perhaps even to the level of having their very souls annihilated. These being volatile tools with a volatile heart, it is not impossible.
3: The Dwemer's goal was not to become the Numidium but to literally become trancendant gods, perhaps leaving to Aetherius behind the Magna Ge. Again, this could entail a radical shift of mental, physical and spiritual makeup so that even if Vivec sensed them he wouldn't know it.
4: Vivec is lying, and sees no reason to explain the nitty-gritty details to the Nerevarine.

There's probably more as well.

As such, maybe everyone who mentally identified him/her self as Dwemer was svcked into the Numidium. In TES, what you think you are sometimes is more relevant that what you are (genetically) when it comes to myths, legends, magic, and mythic forces. "Walk like them until they walk like you."

Lets see:

• One huge Dwemer, in god form as the Titanic Elnofey were.
  
• Influences time like nobodies business, as the Titanic Elnofey did.

Yea, it worked all right.

A: I had no idea there was a "list" function.
B: That's not the question. You are stating the intention with your first point. I know the intention. I covered that in the OP. Statement of intention =/= proof of success. yes, Numidium messes up time, and yes Kagrenac viewed it as a way to become a god, but this list doesn't state, as a certain fact (EDIT: or even as a point at all), whether the he managed to actually do it. You simply laid clear the intention and then said that they were successful with no evidence.

Could the Dwemer goal of un-creation be soon realized, further, with Nerevarine's liberation of Lorkhan from cardiac cessation? Or, did the Nerevarine betray the intention of the Tonal Architect Kagranak's restraints on the Heart, loosing said stone to beat the world's doom?

Since Kargenac (very simply put) tried to make a god of Dwemer and we have something here that indeed does very much looks like a god of Dwemer, we can assume that he was successful.
It is a; looks like a god, walks like a god, messes up time like a god so it's probably a god sort of argument. As such I don't see a compelling reason to waste more time on it then that.

But isn't it more like a machine than a thinking, conscious being? As a "god" wouldn't it be more like the et'ada and the ada in mobility and consciousness? Instead it is a robot with not thought of its own. It may have the power to break dragons, but it certainly isn't cruising around the Aubris and doing other godly things. So... something went wrong, otherwise the Dwemer wouldn't be smeared all over a giant inanimate robot.

I'm not sure... I've never played Daggerfall (yet).

I disagree, it is by nature a god-machine because it runs on the heart of a god. That doesn't necessarily mean that the Dwemer have become a part of it. That's like saying because my new moustache and soul patch looks like Frank Zappa and I am against censorship I am Frank Zappa.

Tell that to John Lockes socks.



I'm afraid I don't know you well enough to make a generalized degenerative classification of what group of people your looks would belong too. Even so you'll get my point.

Look, enough of this non-sequitorial crap. I don't know why you all hate to examine the p;ossibilities outside the static microcosm people like to pretend the lore is, but there are alternate in-universe viewpoints for a reason. If you don't have the cajones to look at them that isn't my fault or my problem, but you'd probably benefit from digging your head out of the sand.

You've been spending way to much time around Sload, Prow. You're starting to sound just like him. Looks like pavlovian training works as well with flaming humans to closed-mindedness as it does dogs to drooling at bells.

EDIT: yes I am pissed. I just lost my job, so deal with it.

Remember that Satak Akel story in the Monomyth? How the presence of his other consumed Satak, until he died, and a New Dragon/Man, Satakel took the scene? Well, shedding the gold scale of Satak preceded the arival of Satakel. The Loveletter makes the point Love is synonymous with God; you can't have one without the other. The Third Sermon clearly notes the Dwemer were befuddled by Love, therefore God. Taking this together, that Love is imperative to jumping from one gradient to the next (Satak to Satakel), and the Dwemer knew nothing of Love, they did not make the jump, while Vivec did, but were cast aside as the molt of a New Man; Numidium. The essential goal was always un-creation, always.

Vivec did note (somewhere) that the dwemer's idea of becoming gods were fundamentally flawed from the beginning (they want to go back, not forward. Quite hard to do when time is linear and wants to progress forward and not back, I guess).

In addition, I think there is some text or something out there that has pointed the Numidium is still out there and out in odd tangents of time, destroying the place. Were some the altmer in crystal tower trying to combat it? I forgot largely of where I read this and what it entirely detailed. In other words of what I remember, the two times we saw the Numidium were not the only instances of it appearing and wrecking havoc, and something to do with Summerset...

However, conjuring from outer realms is easier than conjuring from other parts of Nirn*. The telepathy worked through conjuration of other's thoughts*, and so if it is what classified Dwe(b)mer as Dwemer, than Yagrum would have been un-created even more instinantaneusly** than the rest.

*The doors of Oblivion or something. The conjuror and his assistant travel through different realms and such in it.

**that's a joke.