Did they really claim bigger cities than oblivion? : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:19 pm

They are not far from small. They simply are small. I always laugh when people talk about districts in whiterun. What districts? 3 houses and a tree don't make a district.

I spent some time looking for the gray 'quarter', until I realised I had passed it a few times already.
I simply wasnt expecting it to be 3 houses and a tree..

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:27 pm

What the hell kind of cities are you visiting?

Sure, they may be smaller. But, instead of having the same dialogue and all that [censored], everybody serves a separate purpose, or has different dialogue.

Now, let me lay Riften down:

Keerava, Talen-Jei, Madesi, Brand-shei, Balimund, Bersi, Drifla, Nivenor, Bolli, Haelga, Maramal, Other Mara Priest, Other Mara Priest #2, Talos Priest, Talos Priest's Husband, Talos Priest's son, Elgrim, Elgrim's Wife, Maven Black-briar, Hamming Black-briar, Edda, Other Beggar, Sibbi Black-briar, Ingun Black-briar, Prisoner, Prisoner #2, Jarl, Housecarl, Court Wizard, Jarl's son, etc.

Now for the shops: Blacksmith (Scorched Steel), Madesi's Stall, Grelka's Stall, Bunkhouse, Bee and Bard, Brand-shei's Stall, Meadery, Elgrim's Elixirs

I didn't even count any members of the Thieves' Guild, and I missed everybody on the docks and a few other people.

So, the cities are FAR from small.

So 20 people are a 'city'? o_0

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:11 am

I spent some time looking for the gray 'quarter', until I realised I had passed it a few times already.
I simply wasnt expecting it to be 3 houses and a tree..

Wait... there are districts and quarters in Whiterun? :blink:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:36 am

Here's all the proof you need: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1264038-screenshot-test-for-people-saying-their-getting-constant-60fps-ultramaxed/

I think that really says all that needs to be said about Bethesda needing better programmers.

I took a quick look through the thread and that's... strange. The rigs I'm seeing in there should not be having the trouble they are. Although I don't have the PC version, I think I'll go to the same area and see what I get.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:59 pm

Here's all the proof you need: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1264038-screenshot-test-for-people-saying-their-getting-constant-60fps-ultramaxed/

I think that really says all that needs to be said about Bethesda needing better programmers.

? I'm sorry what is that proof of what?
a poster with an imba rig having issues prooves what exactly?
I have a significantely weaker rig than that post, and I have no issues whatsoever, is that proof of anything anymore than the poster's example?

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:23 am

I love the diversity, architecture and general visual themes of Skyrim's cities, but I was greatly disappointed by their size.

Much modding to be done...

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:02 pm

I know people won't play it because of the graphics, but the cities in Daggerfall had more house you could buy than even exist in Skyrim's tiny settlements. One shop at most of a type doesn't make me think of a city.

Can you imagine Daggerfall and its grandeur with today's graphics? I miss those days of what I feel are true RPGs.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:19 am

Limiations of the engine or something. It seriously detracts from the sense of epicness. The last battle for the Stormcloak capital in the Imperial Campaign for example, felt so pathetic when the imperial legion (I'm pretty sure they were supposed to represent whole legion) consisted of about 8 other guys, me and that Caesar dude.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:43 pm

agree there's a lore reason for the settlements to be small, still...
still they are small even for being settlements (except Riften and Solitude)
true the NPCs are more meaningfull than oblivion/morrowind's ones(in some cases), still 20 NPCs don't make for a city

I like playin RPG in crowded cities, that's why togheter with the way too "classic" fantasy feeling (no more weird creatures, we have animals,vampires,daedra, humans ,2 kind fo undead and oh yes dragons) i don't fully love Skyrim's lore

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:21 am

Right now the cities are built to house exactly the amount of NPCs you find there. I'm guessing more or less every city has exactly enough beds to house each present NPC (give or take a few, and excluding inns), which is all very orderly and nice, but what about people who are not present? In a logical sense, you'd always have a certain percentage of a city populace that you'd never even meet, or that would be somewhere else entirely during your stay at that place. Where are their beds and houses? Or where do all the guards come from? Are they bred in the local barracks? For instance, mistvale keep in Riften has maybe 10-20 beds for its guards, but where are their real houses, and families? Wives, children, parents? I'm guessing they all have to come from somewhere, and I don't think every guard in every city is imported from cyrodiil or another part of the empire. Local law enforcement is usually exactly that; local. Especially in a place like Skyrim.

I don't feel like the city needs any more content, per se. It's just that one has to wonder where everyone comes from. There are frankly too few houses. I'd very much like to see a mod that fixes this. I don't even have to be able to enter half of them, I just need to see that it's actually a town, with people in it; not a place where quest NPCs gather conveniently to make it easier for you.

So, using that thinking, Oblivion was overbuilt? I mean we have a city (the Imperial City) that is about three times the size of Skyrim's biggest city, yet has fewer folks. Not only that, the Oblivion people have far less to say as well other than canned responses made by no more than 4 voice actors. Anyway, ever thought of the term "Suspension of disbelief"? It applies to most games.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:52 pm

Limiations of the engine or something. It seriously detracts from the sense of epicness. The last battle for the Stormcloak capital in the Imperial Campaign for example, felt so pathetic when the imperial legion (I'm pretty sure they were supposed to represent whole legion) consisted of about 8 other guys, me and that Caesar dude.

Its not the engine thats bottlenecking TES games. :wink_smile: :flamethrower:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:28 am

Overall Skyrim feels much smaller than Oblivion which was WAY smaller than Morrowind. And based on the downloaded size of 3.9 gb with saves it is small. For a game like this I would have expected around 8 gb. The 3.9 gb explains where a lot of things went.

Except that Skyrim is far bigger than the size you posit here. The game is well over 5gigs in data, Oblivion was bigger though, that I will admit. Having said this, considering that Skyirm is as you say, "For a game like this" it should have been around 8gb, should be impressive to you. You make it sound as if you have experienced it and thought it was bigger. So, is the game now smaller in scope now that you know it isn't 8GBs?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:02 pm

I think the imperial city in Cyrodill (Oblivion) is as big as one quarter to half the cities in Skyrim combined and I'm not being sarcastic or anything.

Yet if actual data size is considered, Oblivion wasn't much bigger than Skyrim, and looked worse graphically. <_<

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:36 pm

multipost, fixed

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:14 am

They're supposed to be scaled, they could be 5 times as big and still be lore-friendly: the size is a design choice, not a matter of representing the lore... by that means Daggerfall's cities were absurdly big compared to the IC, right?

I love this game, but the cities are a big letdown, to be honest. 5 years should have made for improvements, adding instead of taking. Oblivion cities were not only bigger. but more... Lore-wise, they could have had 9 cities, but instead they decided to go for 5. Also, the game size being smaller than Oblivion is strange, games today are usually way bigger than 5 years ago.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:14 am

Quality not quantity. With the setting of the game it makes perfect sense for the cities/holds to be smaller than those in oblivion. Imo imperial city was too big, it was great to explore the first time I visited it but after that it was annoying to travel around because there was so much dead space.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:11 pm

City size in Skyrim seriously bugs me...but what can we do I'm pretty sure they reached the hardware limit. I'll be concerned if cities stay this small with next gen consoles.

As big as the IC was it's still disappointing as the capital of the entire empire...

Yet Skyrim doesn't have the copy and paste caves, castles, Ayleid ruins, etc that made up for the differences in the outside world of Oblivion. Skyrim's underworlds are almost all different with no repeated areas. So what does that say?

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:15 am

Edit: Nevermind, thought this was in the PC section.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:42 pm

The cities are bigger than oblivions

Cheers

Well, as much as I love Skyrim, this above statement is patently false, if going by area size and perspective.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:32 am

Like anyone, I love in-depth NPC's. But at the same time, I think we need a lot more of the generic, dime-a-dozen NPC's just to roam around cities and the like, as well as more buildings to house them. There could even just be more, bigger inns. Anything to give these people an actual place to live. I mean, where do all of the guards live? They make up about half of the population in any given town. They have to have families somewhere, they certainly have to come from somewhere. They don't just spring to life in the barracks, and live in it for the rest of their lives. Solitude does a great job of looking huge although it's not that big. The problem with Solitude, however, is that the great streets are empty. There should be npc's swarming the streets, even generic ones. There should also be buildings to house them, they don't even need to be enterable. Sure, they'd be generic and overall inconsequential, save that they would add that much needed city-feeling to the towns.

We're in the frozen north, the land of the nords. However, that doesn't mean that all of the 'cities' should be barren and empty. I'd expect the Capitol of any imperial province to be, at the very least, packed with people and buildings. Lore-wise, of course they won't be as big as the imperial city. Then again, lore-wise the imperial city should be dozens of times the size that it is in Oblivion. The entire world should be. It doesn't hold up well as an excuse.

Ever walk through a real city in real life and think the same thing? Seriously, if Skyrim is that lacking, then Oblivion's cities are overblown in scope for popualtion, for surely, there is much more space than there are NPCs in that game. Walking through anywhere in the Imperial City, the population seems sparse if going by comparison.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:47 am

quote ''Hey so no one answered my original question lol . Did Todd Howard claim that the skyrim cities were going to be bigger than oblivions ?''

yes i believe he did

ps assasins creed has huge cities
really huge cities

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:35 am

Hey so no one answered my original question lol . Did Todd Howard claim that the skyrim cities were going to be bigger than oblivions ?

yes i believe he did

In an ambiguous way, he did.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:06 am

Can you imagine Daggerfall and its grandeur with today's graphics? I miss those days of what I feel are true RPGs.

Can you imagine the lag fest?

People are complaining already, and they still want more of it. I don't get it...
For the Viking settlement approach, I think the sizes are fine. There weren't many grand sized cities afaik.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:16 pm

Would you consider Dawnstar a city if it's layout was like this? http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx316/randomguyface/RoughplanforDawnstarrevamp.png

Seriously, every post you've made here is regarding the size and scope of the game, is that all that matters to you?. If that is all that matters to you, then you should play Daggerfall, because it makes Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim combined about 1/10 its total area size. IMO, Daggerfall is greatest of any of the TES games, hands down, and not because of its area size..

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:08 pm

the way i see it is, skyrim is a mountain terrain right? ... how many big cities do you know in the himalayas? none, the biggest is namchee bazzar which is prob as big as whiterun... it makes no sense to have massive towering cities in the mountain landscape, in oblivion it was more flat(ish) terrain and the centre of everything..

Would you expect massive london size cities in a harsh desert?