I think I'm proving the point here just by simply disagreeing with you. You can declare what the definition of canon is or is not all day. Will I accept it? If I don't accept it, does it remain a true statement? If I refuse to believe in something that is metaphysical/fictional, how is there any way you can prove or disprove what attributes it has? And this is obviously compounded by multiple people all agreeing on the same thing.

Once we move out of the realm of the physical (you can prove that this block of concrete is real by smashing my face in with it) into fiction (you can PROVE this part of the work is canon because... you said so), it becomes much more difficult to set these things in stone, yes?

We are, of course, moving into religious discussion here.

Again with this tone. Can't you have a normal convo? You know: ask a question and read the answer calmly?

I'm saying: I frequent the NCR camps, Lady Gibson, 188 trading (over and under) and all they have is more or less the same crap they've had the whole game. I think the gun runner at 188 got two more mods since the beginning, for the .357 pistol as I recall. Haven't found the BoS yet.

Raiders drop basic raider armor worth 50 or so caps, and varmint rifles. They *just now* (as I reached level 17) started dropping the laser Tommy gun. I killed Duke before quitting the game for the night and he dropped a simple metal armor. Not bad but not that much better than my Recon armor. I can't rifle through gas stations since, as you know, in NEW VEGAS they are all boarded up and serve only as decor. (only partial sarcasm there.)

There is one thing that has started to go right: I got my hands on some ammo in Vault 22 and it finally got me in the black. Also, weapons have started coming my way. I've got a couple of uniques and, as I said above, Fiends have started dropping laser smgs.

Immediately the game became winnable and - by the same stroke - enjoyable. I can finally *explore* without being turned into a sticky mess post-haste.

Not sure why you interpreted my posts as hostile- didn't mean to sound condescending. I apologize if I did.

It just seemed genuinely strange that you seemed to be playing a game where you were looting nothing whatsoever, where I played a game where I had too many weapons, armor, and other miscellaneous loot to even carry.

Disappointed? No way. I am new to the FO series i will admit that and for some purists that may make my opinions irrelevant oh well. I never played FO1 or FO2 so i have no real frame of reference to what was lost or gained in the later incarnations of Fallout, only what is now. I played FO3 and enjoyed it for what it had to offer a true open world experience where the player, me, could influence game events in a way i chose. Was FO3 perfect is FONV perfect nope not by a long shot, but both of the games are entertaining and as a player i can not ask for more than that. In FONV i have more options as to diffrent factions to side with which will determine the fate of the region. The additional depth of the factions the player can influence to aid thier ambitions even if thier ambitions are to aid themselves (see the yes man) adds another dimension in the story.

Does an expanse chock full of places to explore make a better game as some have suggested by the way they pine for the dungeons and metro tunnels of FO3, possibly. What i noticed and has been suggested is that the locations in FONV have a reason to exist, each seems to have a small story associated with them not all but most. Not necessarily gone is the i am going in this hole or building for no other reason than it appears over the horizon, but with the addition of the stories associated with some of the locations there is now a reason to go in. Now whether you decide to delve into the location's troubled past or ignore it entirely looking for that next better item, the thrill of discovery is still there. Each location is like a suprise gift now whether it is a pink bunny suit from your grandmother or a red ryder BB gun these places still draw the player who is willing to gamble some time to find out just what is there. Seriously just from what i have explored since getting the explorer perk at level 20 there is alot of stuff here. It would be an impossible task to provide the level of depth to each area that some folks want and still produce the game before global warming cooks us where we stand. In the game you have to make tradeoffs as in real life does one make trade offs so in the essence of time i think the trade off was lack depth to some of the non story related content but the story related content was still engrossing and detailed.

Character development really seems to be the primary focus here. The player must make compromises in how thier character is built. The very fact that at level 29 right now there is some stuff i can not resolve because i can not pass the required check is awesome. My character Allison is NOT god like, so while she can shoot a running raider in the face at 1000 meters dropping it instantly with a critical, she can not pick that lock, hack that terminal and this NPC will not answer her questions because she lack sufficent speach skill to charm the answers she needs out of them. I am sorry, not really, but this is a good thing, it gives me a reason to replay again. Because of the necessity of the required skill checks it is possible to build a completely different character who can still complete the game with out having to be able to pick off running targets at 1000 meters, and because of this that character will feel as valid as Allison currently does now. You have to love that unless your the type who plays a game once or twice and then moves on the the next shiny trinket the game market inundates you with advertising to sell you.

I have to say that so far my overall experience has been favorable i really have spent some time getting to know the world, my character, the factions, the crafting, and the characters. My only real disappointment is that the game is stricktly a Steam game which makes the modding a bit more difficult especially if the mod in question would require FOSE or FOMM to work. It is because of this restriction to the Steam platform that i may not be able to get some content of the advlt nature that i enjoyed from FO3 that will fit more in with the spirit of Nevada more so that it fit into the Capitol Wastes which is a profound disappointment. Whether this was intentional by the developers or a happy coincidence i can not say but i can express my disappointment in this development not in the Steam platform but in the limitations Steam places on the mod community.

Asai

everyone this was exactly the kind of post i was looking for. Thanks for the input. Even the rabbit hole topics. I just wanted a general idea of the pros and cons. Thats why the topic was so broad.

For starters, that's never going to happen. There's just absolutely no chance that Bethesda would (purposefully) alienate the core audience of the older games like that. You don't sell products by making something that it's more vocal target audience specifically would not want.

When you're talking about works of fiction, this whole "canon" things gets really fuzzy, real quick. Sure, Bethesda calls the shots, they define the new canon. But that doesn't mean it's ever going to be set in stone. Look at Highlander 2, for instance. Terrible movie. Made all manner of declarations and plot shifts that absolutely enraged fans of the originals. Sure, it was canon at the time. Until the next movie came out, and everyone universally decided that it just never happened.

And actually, there would be something we all could do about your above hypothetical. That would be, to simply not buy the game. I don't "have" to accept any part of "canon." Especially if I never played it.

^ This. Explorer perk FTW! Nice sig btw.

I completely agree 100%

Refer to my review here as its simply TOOOO long to post it here and I'd probably get a spamming warning.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1136388-my-review-on-fallout-new-vegas/

But ultimately, I think this should have been an expansion for fallout 3 to be honest.

You sound kinda excited over this.
How would you like if someone else(let's say... Bioware?) took over TES and did the same? Hm?

Uhh... are you a die-hard Fallout fan or a die-hard Fallout 3 fan? There's a huge difference.

Flaming, flaming never changes.....

Excited? Hell no. I would like them to make such a statement about Mothership Zeta, but otherwise, I like the lore the way it is. BioWare could do the same thing with TES if they bought it. So? I never said I would like it (the changes Bethesda could make to the Fallout series) , but it would be their property. What I don't understand is why fans (of any form of media) think they have the right to call the shots on things they don't have any legal ownership of.

I recently took Explorer perk and damn, even some sorry shack with two ammo boxes gets called "location". Locations are utterly forgettable and loot is scarce. I had to buy all the best weapons from some gun store because I couldn't find anything worthwhile. Same goes for AP ammo which is nowhere to be found even though you can barely touch radscorpions without it. I'm surprised they didn't overrun the whole map. I guess everyone buys their ammo at Gun Runners.

There's nothing to do besides talking and doing fedex quests for 200 caps and stimpak. You truly are a courier. Even Yes Man, who should be under your command, treats you like a little boy and sends you on some errands. He even sends you to those artillery firing psychopaths. Such a caring young robot. Good stuff.

Whether a lore is "correct" and whether it's "well written" are entirely different things.

You can retcon the lore for the newest member in a game series to something pathetic, and it would be the new lore. But it would still be pathetic lore.

I'm not trying to have discussions about good lore and bad lore. My point was merely that Bethesda owns the series and they decide what happens with the series, so yes, the lore can be retconned and it would be the new lore, but I didn't say it would be good lore, I just said it would be official lore, as you did.

Right.. but.. nobody is mounting legal challenges against Bethesda's ownership of the lore on this topic (or, in general, on any lore-related topic). Criticisms of the writing quality are just that, and they're as legitimate as criticisms of the physics or graphics or gameplay. The purpose of them is to give feedback for Bethesda's future handling of the lore, and to warn or encourage other people to buy this or future games..

The following reply to my original post on the topic seems to challenge Bethesda's ownership of lore.

Even the heaviest-handed retcon won't erase the previously-established canon of Fallout. It will always be there.