http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1181352-i-increased-my-characters-intelligence-so-he-would-be-more-intelligent/ Original thread


OP:

Not because I wanted more Magicka.

Just wanted to clear that up since there seems to be some confusion on this subject!

Cheerio!

Last post from thread 1:

Broski said:I find the it's not earth arguement rather weak but whatever even if they kept the over the top jumping that was a perk under sneak then it's still there, still changeable just handled differently.

Xarnac said:How is that weak? There's Elves, Cat and lizard people, there's magic and real gods. Its most definitely nothing like Earth in terms of limitations. not to mention even Nedic races arnt actual earth humans.

To continue our discussion
You ignored my point that if it were a perk under sneak even if it kept the over the top jumping the. It would still be there, and still be changeable just handled differently. My opinion on the strength of your argument is another thing altogether.

Plus they mentioned the games arent always accurate representation of the lore just a visual representation eg their system allowed it to be like that not because the lore said it should be so and the races all closely resemble humans except the beast races and even they are somewhat humanoid, so I can assume their ability to run and jump would be within the realm of RL. At least that's my opinion but let's not dwell on that.

In response to the last thread, I think 50 perks per character is fine.

Pick a perk...
Pick a perk...
Pick a perk...
Pick a perk...
Pick a perk...

Now do that 10 more times, and spread it out over your character's life time. Don't forget, the idea is to specialize, to get really good at a select few skills and get deep within their perk trees. You can, of course, not specialize if you don't want, and level evenly over a wider range of skills and their perks, but you're obviously not going to get as good in any particular skill as someone who specialized in it.

No, thats what Im praying for, that it is in, even if the way its implemented makes no sense. Why would it be under sneak? I suggested a perk tree for each of the three remaining attributes. Doing stamina related things increased stamina and allowed you to take stamina related perks and so on.

As to your second paragraph, the ability to jump high and run faster than in real life is not only in the games, but the actual lore, its talked about by the people, the books, dialogue etc.

Yeah I get that they want you to specialize but even so it just feels like not enough when I consider how many there are+multiple tiers but I guess we'll just see how that plays out it could very well be a good amount.

Which is more realistic than the old system where you could be a master of all trades. In Skyrim, if you want to not specialize, you can but your just going to be a jack of all trades, master of none.

I never ever saw anything lore related about that that indicated it was faster speeds or higher jumping heights than RL limitations (doesn't mean that it doesn't exist but if I didn't know how can I draw on that knowledge when commenting) as I said that's a different discussion altogether.

It makes complete sense that it falls under the sneak skill (hypothetically) the classes you described in the previous thread (thief and acrobat) and others that would make use of it the most would fall under the stealth archetype that sneak would be related to; and so it makes sense they would have their jump perk under a skill that falls into their archetype ( hope this is clear enough sorry it's hard to type all this on an iPod) also most combat or magic types wouldn't make as much use of such a thing but they could if they pleased only thing is then they are no longer in their specialization and so it would be harder to level sneak (which I suspect now includes lockpocking) to gain access to that perk. Makes sense to me.

Edit: sorry about the wierdness of the post my iPod randomly pasted the last thing I copied in the middle of typing without my noticing.

Ooh Oooh Pick me Pick me!


alright heres a ground breaking question!

Why is the current system that they are applying to Skyrim, Incompatible with the previous concepts? You do realize they essentially just stopped perks from being automatic as they were in oblivion, slapped tags on them and put them on a menu for you to enable right?

why didnt they just overhaul the skill system as they did and just reorganized everything else? I mean you guys are like ooh the old system was broken and terrible the new system is better!'

and then i say, so....why axe everything? why not just expand and revamp everything.


and then someone gives a smart response about clinging to Morrowind and how its better to just redo everything


and then I point to the current skill system for Skyrim, THAT is making it matter, THAT is fixing it Why is that Not applicable to Attributes?

Well they didn't just slap perks on a menu. You can't just pick them all. That means the ones you do pick are meaningful to designing what your character is. Whereas the perks in oblivion were available to ANY character you made no matter what so all characters ended up with the same abilities.
Perks allow even characters usig the same skills as another to be completely different than another using the same skills.
The old way all characters using the same skills were the same.

Edit:
I'd also like to add the reasons I think this is better is because it provides equal customization and also delivers uniqueness it's not just a case of
I'm not going to have you belittle me because I have a different opinion and think the new system might be better.
Also I never claimed that they were incompatible with the concept of attributes but this is the way they chose and I still see it as equal or better. Arguing whether they could be compatible is pointless now anyway.

Perk every level? Will that matter much that your a jack of trades?

I would bet that the game is such that you get the high talents faster if you specialize, but that you get them eventually regardless of specialization.

It does matter in an rpg if all your characters all end up jack of trades...
Also no you can't get talents regardless, that's the purpose of limiting the amount of perks. So when youve specialized your skills then even by leveling up the rest of your skills which would take a long time you wouldn't get the talents associated with that skill because you used them specializing in another way. Jack of trades characters will truly be master of none because they can't get all the best perks. That's the purpose though to deter from the allrounder characters that were so prevalent in oblivion because you'll want to be really good in a skill and get the best talents for it aka specializing.

-I- do not belittle anyone, apologies if you felt that way, but you (and I didnt even know you said as well) were not the only one who said that, the whole emphasis of that post was to address the weird cognitive processes going on where the Skill system has been improved and revamped -ala getting stronger with one skill and getting a focus- but the same cannot be applied to the attribute system, oh no to do that would be clinging on to an old system, better to just Advance and move forward......and I respond...yeah thats all fine and well so why Can't attributes and birthsigns be revamped like skills?

Oh woe is me for wanting attributes to get advanced like the Skill system, Im just stagnant and hateful of innovation and attributes working with Perks and skills is a foolish concept mmk.


and I have to say the same about Spell creation too, its spreadsheety right? excel spreadsheety, mmk So...why isnt Enchanting in the same boat as well? or repairing weapons and armor? or alchemy? last I check all of those have been confirmed for Skyrim and in previous titles, they ALL used the same menu and system.....so Why is only spell Creation Spreadsheety?

That would be really really nice. But I'll have to see it myself. I cant shake the notion that they they would not want to hide that many options from a player who may decide to only play once.

You seem to be thinking that you just have a list of perks and when your maxed out in leveling, you will have them all. That's not how it works. There are 280 perks, you can only get 50 on a character. So that's only 50/280 of the perks and you can only pick perks when you level on skills that you used to get that level such as if you used destruction, enchanting and one handed swords, then you only get to choose a perk from one of those trees, so you have to decide if your one perk will be a destruction perk, an enchanting perk or a one handed swords perk. Then on top of that, supposedly some perks aren't available to you pick another perk or until your at a certain level or something along those lines. Just off the top of your head, do you think that is very little customization or a lot?

It's too bad they didnt take advantage of the attribute system along with the perks and skill changes maybe they could have made something entirely different that worked even better.
But rather than dwell on the changes I found the positives of the new system and I find it to be satisfactory.

Btw I did feel somewhat belittled when you pretty much said I only like the new system as if it's some sort of pervasive disease that makes me like the changes without any reason then hype. I think I'll get over it though I dont think you intended it as such.

Perhaps try a little less generalization when considering the other side of an argument.

As for spreadsheetiness well that could be chalked up to something as simple as poor choice of words. But maybe they overhauled how those things work too so there's no feeling of such a thing, there's alot of unknowns at this point too.That of course can work both ways but I'm optimistic based on what I know.

You didn't increase your intelligent because you wanted your character to have more knowledge. You increased it to get more Magicka, because it's the only way to GET more magicka.
If you did it for any other reason, you are a member of a very small minority of RP'ers who view things different.
Cater to the masses. Sorry.

Even then, I think it's a minority in the RP community as well. I'm a pretty heavy RPer in my TES game and I never once used the attributes to decide my characters traits, that's for me to decide. My argonian assassin had almost no intelligence but he was a very clever argonian. Thus attributes aren't needed to define your characters traits, that's your decision.

Do we know if there is any duplication? (I guess I mean, perks in one group that effectively provide the same effect as those from a different group.)

Exactly. As much as you people hate to admit it, Attributes, for the most part, were redundant and pointless. You leveled up Intelligence, even though it had absolutely nothing to do with intellectual capacity.
What did it have to do with..? Magicka. Seems uh, pretty pointless eh?

Its still your decision this way as well. Now though you manipulate the character more directly by boosting magicka which is the same effect and skills you use often level faster on their own so all the effects are still there. The only thing truly missing is the word intelligence from the stat screen. They just changed it from I increase my intelligence to increase magicka and boost skill progression a bit to - I just add magicka and skills level faster as I use them. If you can do the same thing without the attribute in between that is redundant (no I'm not using it as a buzz word as some do)

Edit: wow after reading that it's almost exactly how todd explained it.. I'm not just saying it because Todd did though; it just makes sense to me.

Not that we know of. It would be highly doubtful as perks in each perk tree only have something to do with the skill they are under. Such as the zoom perk is under marksman and the axe bleeding perk is under one handed axes.

A better example... The D&D feat 'Weapon Finesse' that allows the PC to use their agility for combat attack bonuses instead of the usual strength.

Then FIX it like they did the Skill system. not replace it with Perks oh but waits thats not whats being said, fif your read the recent interview SKILLS are everything, Magicka Stamina and health just increase with leveling.

So get that silly notion that perks replace attributes out of your mind yes?



Sleign, I don't know where In my post did you gather I thought you could choose every perk in one playthrough. but this Combination and possiblities as far as the track record for beth is going is purely in numbers and not as pivotal as you may think.

One thing about perks though if they're going this route is they damn well better be useful or make sense (usefulness is subjective but they better make sense!). I consider a bleeding perk rather dumb to be honest. You don't need to specialize with a weapon to inflict a wound that bleeds it just does't make sense.... hopefully there's more creativity to the skills you can unlock than that.

Amen broski, Amen