well there you go no more squabbling

That they do. But TES wouldn't even exist had it not been for Tolkien.

And I don't want them to be Tolkien copies either.

Ehhh. In Oblivion the only way they could have taken any more from Tolkien would be if they stole his bones and modeled the in-game skeletons after them.

I'm hoping Skyrim gives him some of his stuff back, rather than go down that road.

That is basically what I was trying to get at the whole time xD

Im so sad, cause I thought you had better arguments than this, you just resorted to something very infantile. Oh well.

By the way, Im NOT on the side of the OP. His point doesnt make any sense. Im not saying TES "should" be like Tolkien's...WHATEVER THAT MEANS. I think what he is saying is they should look like in the LOTR movie, which is as stupid as anything else Ive read.

What Im saying is that in FACT, in modern fantasy, elves are modeled in the skeleton that Tolkien (ok, and Anderson in The Broken Sword) made.

They are tolkienesque everywhere.

TES elves and Tolkiens elves actually have more in common than what they dont have in common. Every elf has more in common with Tolkien than not. Even if somebody breaks the Tolkien mold and makes elves be mischievous and kind of evil, like they usually are in mythology, BUT still makes them human like, with a distinct culture and society, its more likely this is STILL tolkienesque. If you want to make elves not tolkienesque, then you would not be making elves at all.

But what do I mean by this? Im playing with language here. Let me rephrase it with more precision: If you want to make elves that are not tolkienesque, you would be wanting to make elves that are not like they are done in modern fantasy. Sure, you can call them elves and you have conceptual backing from folklore; but you would be changing the REFERENT of the word ELF as known is modern fantasy.

Im not saying anything of this is good, bad, or that it "should be", none of that childish infantile nonsense that goes on in nerd forums all the time. Im just stating facts and anolizing them.

Dont take from tolkien for Skyrim. Just concentrate on Elder Scrolls own lore which is just as rich as anything in lord of the rings.
I agree that the Bosmer are completely mis represented in the games, need to be changed, and have the black evil eyes from MW too.

Infantile? More like you just dont know what your talking about. Go read the Hobbit, LOTR and the Silmarillion. then go read all books and lore on TES Elves. We agree that they shouldn't be more like LOTR elves, but Im saying they weren't incredibly similar to LOTR elves in the first place. Elves have contradicting descriptions in Tolkien's works, not to mention they are not described exactly how they looked in the films. the only reason I responded to you was to say that Tolkein didnt create fantasy Elves. Obviously a lot of fantasy will come from the early fantasy writings, but if you actually learn about both Elf types (even though both mediums have lots of different types of elves), you'll see that they are very different.

Yay

Yeah... no.

Elves aren't the perfect and beautiful demigods from Tolkien in TES, they're more... alien.

High elves are probably the most alien, they're tall, their skin is golden and their faces are more slanted and they have a weird sense of fashion. They're not like Elrond.
Wood elves are short, and if any Tolkien race might come to comparison it would be the hobbits or halflings. Still, despite their small size they could still be made threatening, just make a Bosmer with a raspy voice. They're not like Legolas.
Dark Elves have more sharper features and they have a distinct grey/dark blue skin color and red eyes. They're more like charred elves lived in a vulcano, not Drow.

But Orcs are Elves. Bosmer, Altmer, Dunmer, Orsimer. So, why would talking to an Elf be different from talking to...an Elf? :blink:

Because they are different types of Elves. Although I think your just pointing out his use of the word Elf in general? he should of said X type Elf and Orc.

Xarnac- I think you are right on with your comments about Dunsany and folklore. However, Helloween has a point about Tolkien's ubiquity. Given that, I don't think it's just a matter of whether TES is more or less Tolkienesque: it's about how the game positions itself in relation to Tolkien. I love what TES did with the Elves: Tolkien gave us these pristine, unearthly creatures who, mysteriously, never need to work or eat, and TES gave us pristine, arrogant, slave-keeping xenophobes- which is probably how Tolkien's elves would be in RL anyway.

I believe they should do an overhaul on the Elven races not to make them more generic, but to make them not look plastic. And also, I'm tired of the Wood Elves being consistently used as jokes and comedic relief. I'm waiting to see the awesome Wood Elves... They have so much potential. In the lore they are great, yet in the games they are jokes.

EDIT: In short, the Lore of the Elves in TES is great! But when in games, they are executed poorly.

How about no. The elves of Tolkein have absolutely nothing in common with the elves of Elderscrolls. No, not even pointy ears, since those were not in Tolkein proper. Making Bosmer speak in poetry and be all art nouveau goes against lore, and is just boring and derivative.

Basically, yes, TES elves need a bit more personality in game. But drawing from Tolkein (or DnD) is the wrong way to do it.

I like the Tolkein and D&D style elves personally, but TES has it's own lore and they should be drawing from that for the most part. Im happy as long as Altmer don't look like tall, malaria-stricken humans and Bosmer aren't always the short, plucky little clowns. Though these arguments are likely all moot anyways, vsions has already shown us how fantastic Orcs look now, so I'm certain the other elves will look great too.

This.

Oblivion had advanced enough graphics that Bethesda could have made character models that looked more like the concept art, and less like mutants from a diseased, radiation-swamped hole. Seriously, the concept art looks great - the races have dignity and uniqueness. In Oblivion, it looks like every last one of them took a beating from the ugly stick.

Also, it is getting a bit tiresome that Bosmer are the "joke" race. I know, it's been that way for two games now, but it would be nice if we could finally see some lore friendly bosmer.

this

Meh, I don't agree with this summary at all. I find that TES elves are much better than lotr. The lotr elves have a disconnect from all mortals, they are amazing and I'm a heavy Tolkien fan but I like TES's much more as they have more personality.

Altmer- Self Centered and believe themselves the greater of their peers.

Bosmer- They haven't been represented well in the games since Daggerfall for some reason but if the person hunting in the trailer in the fall forest is a wood elf then they have returned to their tall, lean, majestic selves again.

Dunmer- Cursed because of their tribunal's killing of Nerevar. They are anti-social people that hate outsiders and have a bad disposition.

Orsimer- Transformed into hideous creatures after their patron was consumed and turned into deformed monster.

Ayleid- Extremely powerful and wise magic users who enslaved all other races in Cyrodiil with their power and were finally defeated by the help of the gods by blocking off Oblivion so the Ayleids couldn't get their infinite armies through and then sending Pelinal Whitestrake to kill a bunch of Ayleid Kings but even then he was eventually killed by the Ayleids. Unfortunately, without their infinite armies of Daedra and undead, the Ayleids were hopelessly outnumbered and defeated. Now they live hidden from the rest of the world in the Heartland Woods in Cyrodiil.

Dwemer- Elves who leaned towards science instead of traditional magic study and created wondrous mechanical inventions and eventually they disappeared and no one knows why.

I don't see anything needed to improve the elves of TES, they are varied and unique.

what do you think of my elfs?, go to the art section and look for my thread.

For me, personally, the LoTR films were the end of my LoTR fandom.
I thought they were bad films. I really want Bethesda to follow elder scrolls lore and make their own designs and I really do not want to see anything more in any fantasy that is 'LoTR-ised'.
In general I dont like it when everything after a big hype tries to copy the big hype.

I'm one of the biggest Lord of the Rings geeks you will ever meet. Tolkien is a personal hero of mine. I do not want Lord of the Rings in my Elder Scrolls. -_-

As long as the Dunmer SOUND like Dunmer again and not like screechy fops... I'll be happy

Oh please, dont even start. I could argue with you all day long about Aragorn's genealogy, so get off your little cloud, get some humility and try to understand other people's points.

Where you are wrong is in what you understand is the defiining feature that makes them different in TES and in LOTR. You see, what makes them different is something circumstantial to the setting. The fact they appear AT ALL in the setting is what is tolkienesque about them. Before Tolkien, elves were NOT like fantasy depicts them, not even in Dunsany. Tolkien owes A LOT to Dunsany, but Tolkien added stuff to them, and those stuff is what we find in games and fantasy books when they include elves, and these things, which were in Tolkien and not in Dunsany, are what ALL elves share in common, even in TES. Even the idea that elves have a distinct, believable society with its own language, is tolkienesque.

I dont know why you cant accept that. Yes, most people who like LOTR now are a bunch of emos, and we all hate them. Agreed, I hate them too. But thats a gripe we have with contemporary culture, and not something we should take out on Tolkien, who has nothing to do with that.

It'd go against lore, but it'd be a great sequel to Fargoth and Glarthir :hehe:

"Stop! Wait, good man! You seem like a lover of the arts! Why, I just so happen to be a poet myself. I haven't yet made my mark here in Skyrim, but I assure you every Bosmer in Valenwood knows me by name! If you would like, I would be happy to give you a reading. Ahem:

"Roses are red..."

the only thing i agree with the OP on is that bosmer shouldnt be a joke race :shrug: no race should be