Discussion for Workshop Paid Mods - Thread 3 : V - Skyrim

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:04 pm

I was watching Gopher's Youtube vid about this and saw Midas Magic on the list of paid mods he was looking over. I thought that mod was abandoned years ago. If this brings some of the better modders out of retirement and their work is available for a *reasonable* price, I could see this as a positive development.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:36 pm

Ha ha!

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:49 pm

Most of the people posting here are modders. They'd be the ones to know mate.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:54 pm

Yes, they should; it's a matter of principle.

It's so sad to see how people are shaped nowadays. Offering mods is a lot more rewarding for me than selling them; of course not in this world where money decide if you are worth or not.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:01 pm

I'm not seeing that. In any case, my general point is that you don't have to download them. I'm probably not going to even though I've seen a few I might like.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:59 am

There's a difference between "pay for mod" and "donate to author". That's ethics, especially since MODs may use, intentionally or not, other people's work in them and, above all, there's no guarantee they will function flawlessy: they cannot be considered as a commercial product.

Not to mention that, if the 25%-75% scheme is confirmed, paying people are mostly filling Valve's and Bethesda's coffers and too little goes to the modder himself.

I've been modding games for the past twenty years and I know a few guys who started as modders and got full time paid jobs in the industry for their talent (in a sense, their work became their resume) but this is different. I've a feeling that if this experiment is successful, we can kiss goodbye to free modding (be it a sport or to show off one's talent in search of recognition) and people will be 'allowed' to MOD games only if they distribute them through officially sanctioned channels and by giving some money the games publishers.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:43 pm

... The principle of "I WANT FREE STUFF NAOW" is called self-entitlement. You are not entitled to someone's work for free. It should be (And is) up to the individual modder to decide if they feel their work is worth money - some won't, some will. Some may feel that something should be free for any user.. etc. etc.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:04 pm

Not to be rude, LN, but... a Year ago if someone had said "They'll let you charge for Mods" we'd have all told them it was never going to happen, and what happened to people who tried...

There's nothing to say that they won't update their policy so only 'legal' mods come from the Workshop, and then impose an automatic 'service' fee... Not quite the same thing, but you know... Start with something small like this, something optional, and if people allow it, things get worse. Look at DLC... Good idea in practice, people became only too happy to abuse it with sub-standard DLC, day-1 dlc, and on-disk content... Thankfully DLC and Mods remain optional, but still it is a bad idea, and a bad possibility.

My concern is what happens to community spirit: Why should A help B if B is going to charge, and A will get nothing out of it? Or why should A expect help from B if A is not willing to pay for B's help? That attitude would destroy the supportive system we have right now--let's be honest, if you're charging for your mod, I bet you're not going to be willing to hand out the Scripts to help someone else, right?

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:21 pm

Valve manages a hell of a lot of infrastructure. Taking 30% is pretty reasonable. Beth made the IP and so.. eh, honestly, I can see them taking less, but I'm not going to argue with that. They own the IP and original assets.

As for free modding - I doubt it'll ever go away. If it was, they wouldn't have enabled you to pay nothing via Steam.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:02 pm

Mod author here, like a lot of the other people commenting on this topic

I can totally see where you're coming from; but... As someone who has spent about 2,000 hours working on ONE mod... Yeah, I still think it should be free.

Yep, some are going to have different opinions, and that's fine, but like I said in the last thread: If an Author was willing to release their Mod free before, then it is unethical to charge for it now, since they'd already decided they were happy to distribute it for free; existing Mods, at the very least, should not be taken down and made pay-only. Future Mods, I'd say that's a different discussion.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:19 pm

I can see that. I mean, really, I think the debate should be at what point you charge. For example: isoku's Wet and Cold is $4 USD and I'm actually wondering how many have bit. I wouldn't have, because I don't feel it's worth more than the standard microtrans ~$3.

But sure, suddenly charging for a mod that was free is all sorts of "..well.."

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:37 pm

wow... it is worse than I thought. At first I was only worried about the details of protecting my own mods from plagiarism and then possibly being accused of stealing the work by the pilferers (talk about a nightmare, it will be a lot like identity theft). Not to mention that MY work may not even be protected at all as I specialize in game mechanics.

But THAT is really scary.

I bet most people here will not remember when the workshop first started back in the day and us doomsayers said this could happen....

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:12 am

@KN

Exactly my sort of stance on it.

Like, personally, those huge overhauls for new worlds I think it's OK to charge for them because of how much content they (should) have... But that leads into a discussion of "how much content is worth paying for"... Like, some content is very visibly obvious-- a guy who made 100 sword meshes, we can see how much he's put in; a guy who spent 80 hours relocating every spawner... now so much. I think it is going to cause a lot of issues over 'what's worth it', especially with the general attitude I saw in the past (no idea if it's still around) that Modding is easy, and you can knock-out a complex mod in a few hours... :/

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:24 pm

I wonder why Valve is removing a link to donation when you can select a pay what you want scheme.. :Rolleyes:

Actually, I would expect that from valve. Their playground, etc. It's a little strongarmed, but eh. Honestly, I'd argue that you want to post on both nexus and skyrim, with donation links on nexus and maybe use a free/premium model. That's just what I'd do, but I don't mod >_>

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:14 am

Well, this development is kinda surprising and scary. I am afraid that some modders will just move to Steam and abandon the Nexus, making a STEP install maybe impossible .

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:09 pm

This has been my exact fear for years.

I have been making mods since 1998 and I have never released mods publicly on the internet for download because I have a paranoia of mod theft and now look at Steam's Workshop it's happening now.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:09 am

Yeah, I can see that being a problem. I usually consider it like a microtrans, and what I would pay for that. Because that's what mods are being treated as: microtransactions

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:11 pm

Honestly, A lot of people seeing the positive light are, probably, really stretching it at this point.

I see their may be some positive things to come out of this, but HONESTLY people, HONESTLY do you really think the model as it is now a good thing?

Stop with this lying, devils advocate BS. This isn't good, it is currently terrible.

There are positives, sure, it may push for some more higher quality mods(which I would totally be on board if I didn't already know it's not going to happen) , but the system is already being exploited, and not as a joke.

This is it right here.

I want to support the author, not the mod, and not Valve or Bethesda. I already buy/bought their games(I vehking bought The Evil Within this morning).

A lot of "creators" are going to think that their "totally awesome" reskin of Daedric Armour, that "totally didn't use some random textures they threw together from stuff they found on the interwebz", is "totally worth" 5 $. It'll congest the approval/review system and bury authors that might deserve it.

Here is how I see it, donating to an Author, or group of Authors, to make mods as full time jobs(or whatever) for any and all games is alright. I support that, money directly to those that deserve it. They still release the mod for free and those of us who have disposable income can support the Author/s.

Paying for a specific mod, for a specific game, with a vehking 24 hour time window(which is not enough to actually test the mod to see if it doesn't vehk with your game) is BullNetch Jelly.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:14 pm

Paid mods is a really bad idea.

I did YouTube Let's Plays some time ago and I monetized my work. In the end, as a small guy just having a bit of fun, I ended up earning 12,00$ per month, at the most because that was my best month ever, and big corporations making the most out of me. It wasn't worth it. Sometimes I ended up with stupid copyright claims which had to be disputed, and in the meantime, I was losing all my hard-earned income to some big corporation for a month before it was resolved and my ownership of my own video accepted. It was really absurd and not at all fun.

The same will go for modding. Some big corporation will be making the big bucks, while, you, as creators, will be getting 4,30$ per month. And on top of that, you'll be dealing with "ownership", lawsuits, copyright, intense jealousy and greed. Now they've gotten their eyes set on ruining this hobby. And, yes, they will be coming for your mods now.

No, you don't have to monetize your mods. That's the argument, but it's a simple deception. Whenever you place money as a factor, in any way, shape or form, the entire area will change to its core. Money is now a factor in this hobby and it's going to change this area into something really sinister. Mark my words.

"You can make a living out of doing the thing you love" and "Support your favourite modder". It's all deception and empty words in the end. Enjoy your 4,30 per month, because that's the most you'll get out of it, while some big corporation will be making the big dollars. Make a living? Some chosen elitist modding PewDiePie perhaps, but for you and me, good luck with that!

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:40 am

1. People don't donate. I know of a mod that has 1.2 mil downloads and /2/ donations. It's very easy to tell yourself that you will donate and then.. don't. <_<

2. I want you to go set up Valve's infrastructure and then look at the costs. Bear in mind, this involves server farms, bandwidth costs, payment processing fees, payment processing software, paying programmers for the software and managing the backend. Valve gets paid because they are acting as platform as a service. Beth gets paid because THEY OWN THE IP.

3. "There are positives, sure, it may push for some more higher quality mods(which I would totally be on board if I didn't already know it's not going to happen) , but the system is already being exploited, and not as a joke." All systems are subject to abuse. This is something to be worried about though, as Valve's approach to customer service is typically loose. The review process itself is a good step, but unless they actively monitor and use it..

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:02 pm

I wonder why, as derivative works, these mods are allowed to be sold. That's a violation of DMCA, even if Bethesda chooses not to pursue it. On another note, it's pretty [censored] of Valve to take 75% of the profits.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:29 pm

Valve takes 30%. Beth takes 45%. And that's why Beth allows it to be sold.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:45 pm

My issues:

1) 25% is a con job.

2) 24 hour refund is a con job.

3) Who owns the mod now? Is it beth or valve or both? Will they allow paid mods to be placed on the nexus? i have a bridge to sell you if you believe that.... but here's the kicker: Let's say that Paid Mod X on steam is getting hyped, projecting big bucks. Then Free Mod Y comes along on the Nexus and now everyone gets excited. Will Beth/Valve issue a DMCA to the nexus?

4) Community has built tools that allow modders to rake in the dough. Will these people be paid? nifskope, xEdit, etc.

5) Community input, technically if you are selling a digital product any and all input not specifically agreed to would be considered illegal to sell under current pretenses. Suggestions, Voice acting, scripting, texturing, etc all of these people would have to get paid. How is Valve/Beth getting around this?

6) 25%

7) Gabe Newell in a crazy mountain dew and burrito frenzy decides that mods are breaking too many peoples games, decides to put together a dlc package of the "best mods" what's the compensation now? I don't think they have to compensate mod authors anything for repackaging their work. Bad idea to give corporate suits your hard work. I don't care if you're struggling for cash, the community can and will compensate.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:12 pm

Don't know, perhaps you could ask DarkOne over at Nexus.....Oh wait Nexus isn't on a greedy money grab.

» Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:29 pm

Thank you so very very much behippo!

I am not exaggerating at all when I say you, and your team and the script extender project changed my life (starting 10 years? ago with Oblivion).

I have posted my story about this several times before so I will just say thank you for providing me a way to accomplish game design goals I dreamed about from age 10 (over 40 years ago) and making it possible for me make impossible possible!