Discussion for Workshop Paid Mods - Thread 3

Post » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:29 am


Valve used to not allow refunds period, so this is a nice first step. 24 hours is also pretty standard, although on thinking about it, I wouldn't mind seeing a 48h window. Maybe even 72h.



Pretty sure the answer's, in sequence: modder, no, no, unless the nexus works out a revenue sharing agreement.


If they register as Service Providers with Valve, yes.


By.. paying them if you designate them for revenue sharing, which I think is either in the works or allowed. If neither of those, then I'd like to know too.



You don't own the IP or the infrastructure. That said, splitting it more evenly between you and Beth is fair, I suppose.


That's an interesting question.
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Matt Gammond
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:50 pm


You ever look at those ads Nexus runs on, and how they want money if you block them? Valve prefers a solid revenue stream as opposed to the ad based one.

(also, it doesn't have nearly the infrastructure that Valve has...).

Seriously, the Nexus /chooses/ a different revenue stream, that doesn't mean it costs them no money. Now. Maybe Valve /could/ get away with charging less money, but bear in mind, the Nexus and Valve have another major difference - Valve is a corporation that exists to make money, in this case, as a platform.
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Chelsea Head
 
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Post » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:26 am

Yet they provide a much better less invasive service to modding and the modding community than Valve, and watching a few adds costs nothing.

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James Shaw
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:21 pm

But it will change. It already has. It's human nature to act differently when you are doing something for a profit motive than when you are doing it simply because it's something you love and want to share it with people.

That's why Larry Harvey banned all commercial activity at Burningman, to create a community where artists from around the world come together for a week and donate their time and money to an immense degree to share their art with the community. I've participated in several major art installations at Burningman (including Eyes of Gawd and the Terresphere) so I know the time and effort that is volunteered every year by thousands of artists. The gift economy at Burningman is like no place else on earth because nowhere else is commercial activity banned.

The TES modding community was like that but introducing a profit motive into the community is going to change it. It's just human nature to act in our own self interest when money is at issue. The motivations are far different when you are doing something for profit than when you are undertaking a labor of love for no other purpose than sharing it with your fellow human beings.

I am saddened by this news because I know introducing a profit motive will change the modding community forever.
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jasminε
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:35 pm

I guess I just don't understand how bethesda can justify taking ANY cut for user created content profits, considering that after the Dragonborn DLC, they released their FINAL patch for the game, and declared that they would be releasing no further DLC for Skyrim. So, in essence, what is being said sounds, to me, like this.

'We're not going to put a single bit of further effort into this game in order to add to the profits of a pre-existing title. But we intend to make DLC money without any output from our end, so let's have our community make our profits for us.'

The Legendary edition of Skyrim is $39.99 at regular price. In my not so humble opinion, that $39.99 should be the absolute end of Bethesda's profit line for this game. Period. They're not putting out any more content, they're not putting out any more patches. They don't have to maintain a game server so that the game can continue to be played, they don't have to employ dedicated CSRs and GMs to handle support tickets beyond the same staff that they have for all of their other titles, and by and large, support for this title is at an official end. Development of patches and DLC is no longer an overhead for Bethesda for the Elder Scrolls V title.

Therefore, if their support is at an end, so too should be their continuing profits from the title. They should get the initial shot from the 'box sale', and that's the end of it. Instead, what they've done is found a way to continue to gain profit margin on a title that they aren't doing anything further with on the backs of enthusiasts of the title.

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Chris Ellis
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:58 pm

No.. not really... trust me on this, not enough people watch ads, and Valve's infrastructure far outpaces Nexus. Whether or not you like Steam, it has a commanding position.


That said, you don't have to use it. I don't. I just recognize they have a good position.
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Lloyd Muldowney
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:08 pm

If anybody wanted confirmation about the direction we're headed, now Valve is forcing removal of donations links from workshop pages.

It's either through them or nobody else.

Ok, it's their service but I don't think they will stop here.

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Ray
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:12 pm

I think you mean near monopoly, and do you think out of the goodness of their hearts (because they're a corporation) they are going to sit back and let mods be provided on other sites for free when they can exercise their near monopoly and try to shut them down?

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LittleMiss
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:12 pm

Do you work for valve or something? That's not even shill worthy. Have you forgotten how long it takes to setup a modded game? I've spent weeks tuning my stuff up. and sometimes game breaking bugs don't show up immediately. This is a setup for abuse.

How do you know this? I have no doubt in my mind that the modder does not actually own his own mod, regardless if its behind a paywall or not. My suspicion is that beth and perhaps valve would claim they own it if it came down to a legal dispute.

sounds like it won't be worth it.
never heard of that though, i'll have to look into the trickle down economics they're providing.

revenue sharing of a measely 25% on a 2 dollar mod? And how is that going to work with 500 people giving you suggestions you implemented? or the 12 voice actors? or the 2 modellers? or the scripter? Sounds like shelling out 30 cents here, 1.04 there is time well spent.

You suppose? How about not using steam at all? Why not have beth work out something with the nexus? cutting off the greedy middle man, the nexus would most likely give most of their profits to the modder since they are already self contained. Why would beth use a bulky ineffecient system that steam has concocted and then give them 30% of something they didn't create? They already host free mods. This reasoning is non-sequitur imo.
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JESSE
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:56 pm

It will change the modding community. And not just the Skyrim modding community, either. What we are witnessing, I'm afraid, is a drastic shift in user-created content industry wide. And it starts small...$1.50 for this mod. $1.99 for that mod. Does anybody remember how much DLCs cost before they became the industry standard that they are today? $4.99? $5.99? Now your average DLC runs between $10 and $20, with a lot of it being stuff that is already in the game files for the first few months, it's just locked behind a pay wall for no particular reason. Or how about Day One patches? You know, I remember a time when games were launched with an effort put behind them to take care of as many bugs as possible. Now, half the games that get released have more bugs in them than there are in the Amazon, because 'Ahh, we'll just fix them with post release patches. Just get the title out there and get it sold.'

I predict that this starts small. Now, it's Bethesda doing this. Tomorrow, it's EA and Ubisoft doing it, and then soon enough, all of the big publishing houses are doing it. Then begins to filter in the mindset of games being even more half baked....like with post release patches, something that was meant to improve the game later begins to become a rush to correct developers not doing what they should be doing. And bethesda's always been notorious for that anyway, their games are almost always bug riddled messes at release, almost unplayable in some instances until the modding community gets their hands on them. Oh, but now, not only can they do that, but they can make MORE money on the title by releasing bug riddled messes by leaving it to the modders to fix and put the fixes up behind a payment that Bethesda gets 35% of, but I'm going off on a tangent again. Back to my original point....how liong do these mods stay $1.50? Or $1.99? Do you think some jokers aren't going to try to slide in there and get one over on you for cosmetic crap?

Think it can't happen? Wouldn't be the first time if it did...CCP tried to sell a freaking monocle for an avatar that nobody but you ever sees for $17.50 in EVE Online, afterall.

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Sylvia Luciani
 
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Post » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:56 am

I see a petition coming......yep, there it is: https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop.

I have been away from these forums for quite a while. But the last time I checked I was told that installing mods from the Workshop was a no-no if I wanted to have a stable-ish game. Has that now changed? Can we now install 50+ mods from the Workshop without worrying about overwrites, object deletions, save game issues and whatnot? Do we no longer need a mod manager?

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Amy Siebenhaar
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:04 pm

dont play coy whitestar, you know that would never happen.

the workshop is for marks. unfortunately alot of those are going to be noobs, rubes, and kids looking for awesome stuff and then get burned when it breaks their game.

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Izzy Coleman
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:34 pm

This is why I never support Steam or anything like it; even if they don′t do anything to begin with, they can control the purchase you made, effectively turning your purchase into a rental which it really was to begin with anyway.

Eventually, if this gets a good foothold, they can criminalize the whole free modding community, forcing you to pay even for unofficial patches that are essential or other mods that helps with problems like the abomb. While some point and laugh and call it a conspiracy theory, I don′t laugh particularly loud. Step by step they take away what is rightfully ours and because they do it step by step, many don′t see the full picture before it′s too late.

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Gracie Dugdale
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:24 pm

This raises a new disturbing point, I am back with another fun bit of news.

If you look at the nexus change log you'll see a massive amount of removed mods, mostly out of fear of theft and subsequent monetization.

http://imgur.com/EbvAEbu

In the link of above, cheko confirmed that valve is essentially endorsing theft for profit.

Finally again for a friendly reminder, this is a thinly veiled cash grab. Valve has been actively removing donation links for free mods, but they claim it's a way for you to make money... It's true, only its a way to make money for them instead (you only receive 25% revenue if your mod sells for more then 100$). The link below is my proof of this claim again.

https://imgur.com/wW5i5vu

Bethesda and Valve have betrayed us, it's pretty simple.

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Katie Louise Ingram
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:26 pm

I've been a longtime Bethesda fan; and TES is still my favorite fictional universe of all time. I got on the wagon back when Morrowind released and I have been a dedicated follower ever since, buying both Oblivion and Skyrim on release day, watching all of the documentaries (The Making of Oblivion was the best one), and generally just praising Bethesda for their amazing work altogether. I'm an enormous fan of Todd Howard, Michael Kirkbride, and Ken Rolston (even those the latter two are no longer at Bethesda).

I actually used to be quite the forum regular here, sticking mainly to the Community Discussion forum, but still poking my head into the Lore or game forums from time to time. I dropped off from regular posting some time ago, but this being such a critical point in this community's life I decided to dust off my old account.

This has been a crushing blow. There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea that it's a little shocking that anyone at Valve or Bethesda let it happen. I actually checked my calendar just to make sure it wasn't April Fool's Day. I see a lot of people zealously defending this decision, considering the community's criticism to be "flaming modders" or some other nonsense like that; so I imaging my take might not be very welcome here, but I'm willing to give it a shot anyway. I'm just too much of a dedicated fan of this community to let it go.

First of all, the premise itself is poorly thought out. I'm pretty passionate about PC gaming and I try to support it all I can, but this decision will take one of the biggest draws for PC gaming and monetize it beyond repair. You're simply just going to have people pirating mods; the ones who don't pirate just won't use mods at all. And the small number of people who do purchase mods will likely encounter a myriad of problems.

Which leads me to the next point. Has no one thought of how difficult this system will be? Mods can be the most unstable parts about PC gaming. What happens when two mods conflict after they've been purchased? Will they get a refund? What happens when a game receives an update and breaks mods that are no longer being maintained by their creator? Will the customer receive a refund? There are so many fledgling modders who haven't gotten a hang of the skill yet and include a lot of bugs. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, until you start charging for this content. Seriously, this just like small, unofficial, and unstable DLC now. Who in the world will want to buy a weapon or armor for a dollar?

And this is exacerbated by Bethesda's decision to enforce no type of quality control. With a community as large as the Skyrim Workshop, the front page will be flooded with cheap, broken, or insignificant mods with beautiful and deceptive screenshots and descriptions to convince people to purchase them. And does Beth really not expect for this to be open to abuse? Because it is already being abused. At this moment, there are "modders" already who have uploaded the content of others and are charging for it. Yes, I understand that there is a DMCA reporting feature, but do you actually think this is going to be enough? These people aren't going to stop and since Bethesda wants this to be a free market, this will be a regular staple of the Worskop now.

On to my next point: "Modders should get paid for their work" and "Now you can finally support your favorite modder". Then donate to them. No seriously, I am among the firt to praise modders for their hardwork. I have helped bugtest Morroblivion for around three years now, off and on, and I make sure to tell Qwertyasdfg, Brainslasher, llde, and all the others there jsut how much I love their work and and their project. Hell, I've even thrown together a plugin or two in my day and shared it with other. Back when Oblivion was announced, I was a writer involved with defunct Library of Tes F'Ruum mod that was to be created for Oblivion. I am very much a supporter of modders and I've always defended their ability to create modifications of existing games. I actually am not opposed to large mods like Skywind, Black Mesa, etc from being eventually monetized as a standalone Steam release. I just don't think that should be policy, snd certainly not for Staff or Sword mods at a dollar a piece. No kidding, if all of the mods I use for Oblivion were suddenly monetized and cost around a $1, then I would have to pay at least $100. Mods are not something I am willing to pay for because they are free for a reason. They are fan modifications that exist to inspire and perpetuate creativity. This way, they will inspire putting the lowest amount of work into a plugin that adds maybe a house or a suit of armor so the creator can charge a buck for it. I realize that the really dedicated modders will continue to create big things and some of those things might have already been worthy of getting a full release on Steam and a price tag of $10 or $15. Those modders exist because their content is really good and the economy of free mods promotes their work. I have a feeling that they won't be rewarded so well, if they choose to monetize under this system. What Valve and Beth should have done is gone the Humble Bundle route. Allow you download somebody's mod for free or choose a pay what you will option. Hell, I'm even behind mods being given Kickstarter pages. I think that is actually a fantastic idea as it would ensure the mods that are really desired by the community will get the attention and funding they desire as will as ensure that the mod creators have an obligation to create the mod that they said they would. This, donations, or the pay-what- you-want system would encourage the users who are invested in the modding community to reward their favorite mods and the users who don't care about that sort of thing to continue downloading free mods as usual. As it is, the latter group will likely just resort to piracy now.

Another huge factor is that the creators are actually getting very little of the proceeds off their mod. 25% is hardly worth all the work you would put into your mod. Of course, modders create because they love the game and they want to see more content for it, but now that money has been brought into the equation everything is different. The biggest incentive to create mods were so that you had something significant to put in your portfolio when looking for work in the gaming industry. Mods have always been the forge on which the best creators were tempered and honed so that the best ones could go on to create amazing games for real companies. Now, how many modders are just going to forgo that, stick to creating one-off mods that practice pump and dump schemes in order to fund their next creation. Yes, you say "You can always go to the Nexus", but how long before this practice seeps in over there as well? There aren't very many modding sites anymore. Back in the Morrowind and Oblivion days, there were so many different modding sites that if one went down, nobody felt the sting because the same mods were likely available elsewhere. That isn't really so today. The Workshop and Nexus are the only viable modding communities and now one of them is charging for mods. You can't deny that Nexus creators will eventually cash in on this as well. Even if they didn't, though, that isn't the point; for a lot of people, half of the modding community just died because they won't or can't pay for mods.

I feel the need to, again, assert that I'm not hating on creators at all. Some of the most magical experiences I've had with video games were had because of modders. And the guys who create this wonderful mods have always had my hopes that they would go on to create amazing original content in the games industry. I am so passionate about this terrible decision because I care so much about The Elder Scrolls, it's modding community, and PC gaming in general. Seriously, I've been an avid lore fantatic since before Oblivion dropped and it's impossible for TES to not be a part of my identity at this point.

Valve and Bethesda have both been unique companies in my opinion, in that they seem to have always known what their fans wanted. They've always been really connected with their fanbase and very supportive of them. Bethesda, in particular, is a company that revolutionized modding for the better many many years ago. The Construction Set was one of the biggest changes to the way that fans show their support and harbor creativity among each other. It's so disappointing to see Bethesda throw up such a big roadblock in front of the modding scene.

I believe that this is all I had to say, but I may have let a point or two slip my mind. I will come back and edit my post if that is the case. I don't like where this is going and I do not think it will pan out the way that supporters of this system believe it will. There are too many problems, shortsighted aspects, and anti-innovation mechanics of this system that are being exacerbated by Beth's decision to not even moderate the market. What makes all this worse is seeing the defenders of this system deride anyone critical of it as freeloaders, pirates, children, or other insults. We are allowed to criticize this system. Like I said, I'm all for creators getting monetary compensation in form of donations or pay-what-you-will systems, but this current system, its premise, and the way it is implemented will likely be more harmful to the modding community, the PC gaming community, and fan communities in general that I don't think it's possible to avoid problems. As important as modders are, fans who consume mods are likely even more important. And I think it's pretty childish to accuse critics of this system as freeloaders. They've helped make this modding community just as much as modders have, by consuming the content they like, bugtesting, and word of mouth. They have just as much of a dog in this fight as creators do and it's entirely within their right to protest this.

EDIT: Trying to watch out for typos. Let me know if I missed any.

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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:15 am

The Workshop has always been okay to use. There's the problem of mods auto-updating which can cause problems (for example a modder updates his mod to require a DLC a mod user doesn't own), but you can work around that by subscribing to & downloading a mod, making a back up of the mod's files and then unsubscribing.

Thing is though, the only advantage the Workshop has is that it's automated. You click a button, Steam downloads and installs stuff and you're done. That is fine for most games where modding doesn't require much - if any - user input (for example Age of Wonders 3 where you can download maps from the Workshop).

But that just doesn't work for a game like Skyrim since a mod user has to make sure the mods he's using play nice with eachother, needs to check dependencies, setup the loadorder, compatibility patches, etc.

So no: You can not download 50+ mods from the workshop, immediately boot up the Skyrim and expect to have a stable, working game. Just like you can't download 50+ mods from the nexus and expect everything to immediately work right.

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kasia
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:40 pm

The only mod I would ever pay for is a complete overhaul of every single quest in Skyrim to have full choice and consequence, with the original voice actors.

I would pay $60 for that, maybe even a bit more.

But other mods such as houses or small towns? There are plenty of free ones about.

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Rudy Paint fingers
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:13 pm

I thought this would be more apt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

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BRAD MONTGOMERY
 
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Post » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:36 am

Not if they criminalize free mods at some point when this whole deal has settled in nicely. Then they can say you′re a thief if you don′t pay for the same mod they offer.

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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:07 pm

I don't think Emma would jump onto the paid mods bandwagon, or would she?

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JR Cash
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:31 pm

Maybe she wouldn′t have a choice at some point. Then it′s either selling her mods properly or not putting them out there at all and if she does put them out there for free, she gets charged as a criminal.

I′m not trying to cry wolf when there is no wolf, but I can definitely see it coming in the distance.

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phillip crookes
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:10 pm

If that would be the case, I guess I'm glad that I didn't work on Valenwood Islands for Skyrim for so long. :shrug:

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Eoh
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:25 pm

I mean, here's the ting: who wouldn't? Of course the veterans like Emma might on principle, but do you realize how tempting it would be to charge for them? You're a modder who needs money and all of a sudden everyone around you is charging for mods. Why wouldn't you? I know that in that situation, I would have a hard time resisting that temptation. When money is involved, it's hard to have standards, especially if you're broke.

But this change is harmful to the community overall. That's why straight out paid mods should not be allowed. Add a donation button to the Workshop page sure, make it possible to donate using your Steam wallet, that's fine. Set up a koickstarter for large mods or do like Black Mesa and release your large mod as a standalone game. All of that is okay. But turning the modding community into unofficial DLC is do disgustingly greedy that it breaks my heart. This is a very slippery slope that will be the detriment to the modding community and probably even the TES community.

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Avril Louise
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:18 pm

Has anybody seen this open letter by Chesko, the creator of Frostfall and Arissa? (apologies if it has been already posted)

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s53/sh/3c4f3e29-9b4e-41cf-9a72-1b3ed9f70c62/c727dccbb3398aebb5946afac7faaaea

It seems a sensible middle ground although I still fear, in a not too distant future, I won't be able to use MODs outside of the Workshop of whatever other system is in place.

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CxvIII
 
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Post » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:15 pm

Wow, that's messed up if true. If I'm interpreting that pic correctly, some scummy modder can rip off another modder's work, put a bit of his own stuff in there and then sell it for $team Bux as long as the mod he's piggybacking off of is already free??

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Bethany Short
 
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