[Dorian Cozens]

Since the last thread has hit over 200 posts

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/

[tannis]

I would like to recommend everyone watch Totalbiscuit's video on this. He perfectly illustrates why this is bad for everyone involved and why modders should not trust this system. Modders are underappreciated; but you're naive if you think this system or nickle and dimed paid mods at all are the solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGKOiQGeO-k

[Maddy Paul]

Thank you Bethesda the quarrel already started:

http://www.destructoid.com/the-first-paid-skyrim-mod-has-been-pulled-290924.phtml

and it will get worse. All already seen at the Sims modding scene. Sad thing, really sad thing.

[Andres Lechuga]

That article is giving quite the pernicious characterization to Chesko. If modding doesn't count as a job, why does playing telephone count as journalism?

[BRIANNA]

It's all pretty crushing. TES is such a huge part of my identity at this point that such a destructive change is very personal to me. This is bad for both modders and users.

[Georgia Fullalove]

It doesn't.

Edit: Sorry for the doublepost. Didn't mean for it to happen. I sometimes forget I'm not on Reddit.

[Amelia Pritchard]

I have dreamed a dream and now that dream is gone from me.

He that is never benefited a free mod among you, let him first to put up a paid mod.

Seriously, I say laissez-faire... Total Conversions deserves this. These games are very suitable for Total Conversions, the mod tools are very easy to use. But we rarely see them and almost never as finished and I think that can change with this kind of incentive.

On the other hand, microtransactions, early access, season passes. Hopefully gamers know better.

Best way would be small mods staying free but have deals with total conversion or big quest mods which include them. Then it would be justified and fair way for all parties involved. Free versions of small mods will hopefully ensure this in the long run. That's the best case scenario.

The future is bleak though, because Valve/Bethesda will probably become less consumer friendly in the future to fix issues with this system. I expect mods being encrypted with drm, amateur modders getting limited access to the engine and kit features, Beth shutting down free mods and banning third party tools when things get really ugly... So it won't be laissez-faire in the end.

Workshop only Fallout 4? I'll pass. That means passing on best genre in the universe. There are already a handful of games left that I care about. I am getting pretty sad now.

[Manny(BAKE)]

@PS,

What about university students? They have to do research and write papers... That's the same as professional academics.

Whilst I see where you're coming from, that branch of logic can be applied out infinitely, to the point we should pay everyone for everything. In the end, look at it this way: Beth did not have to ALLOW people to Mod the game, and with Steam could have banned it altogether. They chose to release the tools and allow modding, in that sense we 'owe' them, and it is at their discretion; hence why for so long they could step in and stop us selling Mods.

[Danger Mouse]

This piece of news is very depressing for me. I think Bethesda should learn what mistake they made after horse armor for Oblivion and Heartfire for Skyrim.

Now they earn on small mods, that they don't even make themselves. This is a big bad cash jump.

Mods should stay free forever. Paying for every piece of armor, weapon and texture packs is very mean and greedy.

Bethesda saw that modding community is very large and they now want earn money for that. No matter, that Skyrim itself was a bestseller and gave them a large amount of money.

I've bought Skyrim for mods, because base game svcks (dat's my opinion). I've improved combat, world, cities, UI, NPCs, etc. It is ~200 mods. If Skyrim was a free game, but all these mods were paid, It would cost much more money, than average PC or console hardware. I'm worried about TESVI. This situation clearly shows, that Bethesda has players and their opinions in their...

So one: TESVI is possible to be a bad game and two: fixing it with mods will cost very much money (assuming that people will charge money from most of them).

The best solution is just a donate options. There are many situations, that indie creators have succesful Kickstarter or are paid very kindly for their creativity by kind people. "You must pay" for mod is a very bad idea.

[JaNnatul Naimah]

We should have acted. Valve's already here. The conspiracy theorists told of Valve's return(s). Their free mod hosting was merely a delay 'til the time after Skyrim Modding ripened, when the modders of Skyrim would spill their own blood (sweat and tears). But no one wanted to believe, believe exploiting even existed, and when the truth finally dawned, it dawned in backfire. But! There's one they fear, in their tongue He's NotEasilyDecieved! NotAFool!

(Que choir electronically multiplied by 9001)

[Sophh]

Well, I've written a https://wrinklyninja.github.io/skyrim/modding/2015/04/23/paid-mods-the-end/ that sums up my thoughts and feelings on this, since it's all a bit long-winded for a forum thread post.

[Bethany Short]

Yeah, I think this is the scariest part. DLC and microtransactions have become pervasive enough. Now they are being outsourced to fans. It is so incomprehensibly greedy of Beth and Valve to let modders create tmoney-grabbing DLC for them.

This was not an outcome I ever expected to see for PC gaming. How sad.

[rolanda h]

ZZJay just told Chesko his Arissa mod cannot use ZZJay outfit for a paid for mod.

I have also asked Chesko to remove my optional files too, I am not prepared to offer free work to support someone elses profit

[Kathryn Medows]

You know, I do kind of appreciate the humour in Skyrim, a game about Civil War and "Brother waging war on brother" being the game where this enters the community

::Looks about in case a Dragon shows up...::

[Miragel Ginza]

Well, 1. I fear that there's an undercurrent of modders not "deserving" pay, but mostly 2. it was a deliberate vocalization of that concern so that I could indulge in the mastvrbatory cleverness of the "telephone" comment. That said, I do worry that the article has taken but a cursory glance of the situation and may result in forming rash opinions.

Your university student anology is more apt than you may realize, but I'm too tired to extend the metaphor right now.

[Gaelle Courant]

As long as the Dragon devours Valve it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing...

[JD FROM HELL]

And so it begins.

[phil walsh]

Despite this I actually still like Valve as steam is still a really great service to us imo and no one else but GoG can match it.

[Marion Geneste]

@SB,

Haha, yep we do like to use our clever comments

You raise a good point on the 'deserving pay'. To me, both as a Modder an a Writer, it's always been (like I said in T1) about making people happy, about sharing what I do. And for me, that should always be the underlying ideology of Modding-- you're doing it because it's something YOU want in your game, and want to share with people, not just "Oh, here's something that'll make me money!"; I think that's why the 'donation' idea is better-- but as has been pointed out people do not donate; so maybe instead of 'pay for mods', actually encourage a change of attitude in the community towards giving a little back to an author you like?

[Bellismydesi]

I disagree. It used to be great and their sales still are. But their customer support is the worst in the gaming industry, currently.

[Far'ed K.G.h.m]

that's why I keep suggesting using Patreon and doing mods by commission. Patreon lets you set up goals, people can pay you monthly if they want to, you can actually make a small profit if you're good at what you do and make a profit and it can even build your own community. It could also lead to new things like a indie dev team asking for help or offering you a spot or you could expand and do things like fund a LP channel or a twitch stream.


That's probably where my experience is not to be taken because I haven't entered into a situation where I need customer support.

[joseluis perez]

One of many things more easily said than done, unless this situation galvanizes it, and even then probably not for long. Being galvanized in this particular way also has detrimental effects, which I will illustrate via quote when I have time.

...SB?

[Nicole Elocin]

From the last http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516811-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-3/page-7#entry23943272.

I wonder if this violates http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1392324-eu-rules-you-can-resell-downloaded-games/ or not.

[Gemma Archer]

I'd rather work for free that receiving only 25% of the cut.

Most importantly, being from Europe, I still have many issues regarding the legitimacy of the model imposed by Valve:

If a modder releases a paid MOD and a game update breaks it, would people be able to hold the modder liable? What if his MODs breaks another one permanently?

Many mods eventually stop updating and are forgotten. What would be considered adequate support both in terms of time and actions taken?

The trade laws in Eu are pretty clear:

Specific information requirements apply when buying digital content online. Before making the purchase, the consumer must be informed how the content operates with relevant hardware/software (interoperability) and about its functionality. Consumers also enjoy the right of withdrawal within 14 days from concluding the contract for online digital content. However, even if once the consumer starts downloading or streaming the content he may no longer withdraw from the purchase, still the trader obligations remains. So, if a MOD is not working the consumers is fully entitled to a refund, regardless of how much time has passed. Refund means a refund, not a voucher or some sort of virtual currency. PERIOD.

In this case, the modder is not the only one liable, as both Valve and Bethesda are more than happy to take their fair cut of profits. At least in the EU, Steam is operating in a grey area (if not totally outside) of the law.

[Yvonne]

Valve isn't an EU company, so...

ETA: That said, a 14day return rate is .. seriously, a bit much. I can /finish/ mods in 4 hours, and I'm dammed sure I could do so in 14days...