Discussion for Workshop Paid Mods - Thread 7 : V - Skyrim

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:48 pm

This is part of a post I made on another forum. The point of it may have already been made, but if not, I want to make it known.

I'm not anti-capitalism, but I am anti-ruin-a-community.

Khugan

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:26 pm

This is the only time we can do something about this. If we accept this as is, future games from other companies can use this case to justify their treatment of "3rd party DLC". Zynga started the whole "virtual currency" bulldung and now everyone uses virtual currency gateway instead of direct purchase. Oh, you want to buy a $4.5 product? Sorry, you need to pay $5 and wait until a $0.5 product comes along to spend the rest

Think long-term, not short-term

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:59 pm

@DE,

But that is the problem: we are deciding the future NOW. If we, the users, accept Pay-Mods, then next-time around what is to stop Beth/Valve saying 'All mods on Workshop have a service fee of $1'? And then from there to say Mods can only be distributed via their service? NOW is when a stand needs to be made, to stop that happening--THAT is the real issue here.

Remember DLC? How it would be 'extras'... Now look where it is, content on-disk, content pre-designed for DLC distribution, et cetera...

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:30 pm

A CD can be played in any CD player, provided that it's formatted correctly. If a CD doesn't work, you damn well sure I'd push to get a refund, and so would other customers. Hell, I just got a refund from a site because they supposedly shipped a CD a month ago...that never came in and no one can give me a straight answer as to where it is.

If a mod breaks because of an update, or it doesn't work at all due to other mods the player has, what then? It's already hard enough getting Valve to give refunds for games that use false advertising in Early Access, let alone doing so because of a mod. Valve has terrible customer service and terrible quality control and everyone knows it. Yet people expect this to be fine?

Saying that opposition against this is anti-compensation is a red herring. This system is exploitative and broken in its current form, full stop.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:29 am

Sad day for modding -- Glad I'm pretty much done with it any way.

Say goodbye to the days other modders were around providing help to modders that needed something for their mod like someone who was great at creating a dungeon layout but needed help coming up with that sword that would be hidden deep inside - as now the help will either cost the modder to get or will not be able to be retreived unless you buy both the dungeon mod and the mod for the sword and all the trolls that already copy modders work and post them free on other sites are going to go crazy uploading ripped off works for sale - taking the work of those that still wish to help by providing their content free are soon going to find that work being included in other mods that are for sale and lose all interest in providing the free stuff anymore.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:38 am

That's all and good, but I still see a post that starts with an off topic note, then delves into on topic portion. I said my piece on an off topic subject, noted it as such as the other poster also did, yet my entire post is gone. Why not just remove the off topic portions of both, rather than remove mine entirely while letting another stay entirely? I was also quite civil about it as well.

Edit - I'm not sure if you were the one to remove posts, seems my mobile browser doesn't indicate who is a moderator, so far as I can tell. Whether it was you or someone else, I'd ask that the mod who removed my entire post PM me to explain the reason. I'm open for an honest discussion about it.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:32 am

using that logic, all games should be free because they are reliant on the hardware that plays them

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:27 pm

I agree with this.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:49 am

Let's remember that the people who play these games are mostly teenagers with no disposable income of their own besides some birthday money and the rest are college kids in debt. So the reason PC customers like mods is because they're free. It's dreamy; you're getting free content for an awesome game and the only thing you risk is messing up your saves/computer.

The coming generations of people are and will be the most internet savvy. Imagine the amount of people who pirate Skyrim. Obviously pirating is bad but why pay for something when you can get it for free? I mean, there's legal ramifications but people still steal. I think the worst you can do is underestimate the consumers. When there is a cheaper alternative, people will flock to them. Yes, you can argue there are dumb lazy millennials who like to buy whatever flashes their way. But with the latest economic downturn, I think many have sobered up and are intensely aware of economic issues. Not to mention there's a general distrust of corporations. Bethesda in the past had the goodwill of their PC consumers by not messing with the modding community and even supporting it. We can forgive them "stealing" modder ideas from past games because of their contribution with the game and toolsets, and mods are free to all, including the developers.

This http://news.softpedia.com/news/Bethesda-Does-Not-Fear-Piracy-Still-Loves-the-PC-233578.shtml, from the day before Skyrim's debut, shows what one Bethesda employee said about PC platforms:

Sounds great, right? The "unlimited" modding aspect was a perk that pretty much won customer loyalty. Slowly but surely, they're pushing the envelope and hoping those same customers will pay a little extra and stay loyal. That the backlash will pass and fade and they can implement this without hassle. Of course, I just mentioned that their demographics tend to be internet savvy and poor. You can mooch off the 12 year olds with parent money or the advlts who don't mind tossing a couple bucks, but everyone else will probably just find another cool game through a Google search or reddit reference. Ultimately, treating your demographic dumb will bite you in the back. Lazy is reasonable, but dumb?

Still, it's understandable Beth and Valve enabled paid modding. It has huge profit potential because even though the demographics lack money, there's so many people who each spend a little. And assets? All electronic media makes distribution a cake-walk. I think the biggest concern is when paid mods become the standard, and the law.

Nexus, tumblr blogs, and other places offer downloads for free. Will Steam and Beth want to close those sites so they can collect money through the Workshop alone?

People like money. We need it in this day and age. But money isn't always a good thing, and for one I do not want to encourage this attitude that worth = $$$. Others already mentioned shady mod makers who take free work and make a profit off of them, whether they are allowed to or not. Now we have to argue whether it's legal, ethical but the end is, someone decided to step on another for their own gain. It becomes a competition for money and status. Valve and Beth won't care precisely because they're making cash.

When people take free assets to profit, the creators of those assets may say, "Hey, I want some too!" Then they stop releasing free assets because some bozo made money from their labor. Now where's the free stuff that modders relied on for years to make mods? Do future modders have to bribe and pay others to use their assets in the future? The corporate world already works like that.

The final conclusion I've come to is that Bethesda will not be a game that supports modding anymore, but outsourcing developers for countless DLCs and $$$. It feels like a bait-and-switch; They're offering Skyrim on sale now to celebrate this great change but the mods we enjoyed for free are becoming costlier and costlier. Eventually we may only be able to buy mods. This game is old by industry standards but has stayed popular due to (free) mods. I think Beth is pushing their luck too far with this paid mod marketplace. They offer a little incentive to get mod authors on board, but it's no more than a pittance to keep them happy and loyal, while everyone else is left in a minefield to duke it out. Talk about crippling the hands that sustain you. Instead of eager hands reaching out to build upon the game's infrastructure, they'll be hesitant, wondering what their wages will be.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:02 pm

What he said.

I thought about replying in that forum, but I cannot find a way of doing that without being condescending, so I didn't say a word.

And what this guy said.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:50 pm

I just found this thread so be patient with me if this has already been discussed. Where does Nexus come into this? I'm asking because just about all of my mods come from Nexus. I stopped using the Steam Workshop some time ago .

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:08 pm

The Nexus gets a small (well, minuscule) cut of the profits. Though that is if the Mod Author of said SW file decides to donate a part of the funds they make from their mod to them.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:31 pm

Oh ok, so apart from the $5 a month that I donate to Nexus, I won't have to pay for mods there like they are charged in the Workshop?

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:32 pm

My fear is that for Bethesda's next Fallout or Elder Scrolls installment, they'll want to DRMify modding to ensure mods can only be installed through the Workshop. This would ensure that paid mods cannot be obtained through other sources, either for free or with donations directly on the author's site. This would kill places like the Nexus.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:56 am

Ah, Jumping Logic! Been too long since I've seen that.

No, by that logic all games should be guaranteed to work, stay supported and deliver their promises.

Oh hey, how's that zombie survival early access coming along? Right, they never get finished

First, it was DLC, and we thought "it's expansion pack"

Then, it was Early Access, and we thought "it's for the indies"

Finally, it was paid mods, and we thought "it's about time the devil corrupts the rest of the world"

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:04 am

I have no doubt that they will. Look at Star Craft 2. Before that, Blizzard had no restrictions over custom maps. After Star Craft 2 launched, the "wonderful" system was introduced that nobody can download maps and play it like they used to, but had to go through Battle.net to download them into some obscure folder.

I will not be surprised if Bethesda's next game will have something like this.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:32 am

75% cut.

Supporting modders.

Sure... sure.

Do people seriously like being exploited and shafted these days? Really? Do you honestly think this is an ok practice? Really??? Christ on a bloody cracker. This is not the way to support modding, this is greed and exploitation, pure and simple.

Currently no. The only change they have made is that when you download a file a Donation prompt will appear, which is just to remind the downloader that there is the option (basically, an extra click). Asides from that, nothing has changed... yet.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:04 pm

This just made me realize...

Unfortunately, even if my once beloved Bethesda had second thoughts about all this, they are now tied to legal agreements with valve. This situation is not going to change unless Bethesda was clever enough to include a limited time "duration" in the contracts AND are willing to make Value angry with them by enforcing the clause when they can.

Please note I have been an extremely active TES mod CREATOR for over 10 years and even made mods that were adopted into Skyrim game play. I never once regretted that they would get to use my work and ideas for their game, even now.

I am disappointed in Bethesda for this new turn of events. But I will try to separate my feelings for the "CEOs" of the company that made this happen from the artists and programmers that have no control over the business. I still profusely thank Todd Howard and his team for what they have given me up to now.

Nothing lasts forever.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:45 pm

What you donate to Nexus actually goes to maintaining the servers and paying for the bandwidth of everybody else that can't pay for that. The same goes to free-with-donation sites like Reddit.

Have you seen how many ads you see when you go to maintained-by-donations site like that? Compared to sites maintained by ads? It's a lot of difference.

Nexus has stated that it won't go down the paid mods path, so yeah you don't pay for the mods you download on nexus

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:14 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33s0g8/i_have_hidden_all_of_my_mods/

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:37 pm

For their sake, I hope they also hide their mods in Nexus, don't want Ap0llodown uploading a SkyUI Gold to Steam Workshop

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:37 pm

I dont think its the death of modding but for me personally it will limit my mods. I will still get a mod like frostfal but not for 4 companions

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:41 am

I do hope people haven't been uploading content to Steam as pay mods made with the student version of 3DS Max, I'm sure Autodesk wouldn't be amused. If Valve is profiting from content made against Autodesk's wishes by breaches of their EULA they might find themselves in hot water along with the mod author. Might be something for any would be mod thief to think about also, after all Steam has your details they might have to pass that info over to Autodesk lawyers one day.

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:31 pm

Thanks Rae! :icecream:

» Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:37 pm

If that happens then you can expect the same thing that happened with The Sims... Yar har diddly dee~ -_-

By the way, Valve has already removed mods from the Steam Workshop where the author had added a donation link in their description.

Apparently SkyUI 4.0 will stay on the Nexus. However, SkyUI 5.0 and onwards will be SW only.