[KIng James]

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516833-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-6/

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http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516784-skyrim-workshop-now-supports-paid-mods/

Copy of FAQ:

[Jinx Sykes]

Reposting this for all to behold. BEHOLD.

Chesko is just taking a break. I would recommend rather than trashing on him, we support him, send him messages of reassurance. Maybe donate to him? Hmmm? Hmmm? I certainly suggest doing the same for other modders. At the end of the day, I don't see this as a money grab by Bethesda or Valve. Both companies have been known to support modders to the end of time, and this is their good intention. Who am I to say if it's wrong or right anyways?

[Kate Norris]

while i'm not going to flame Chesko, i'm a little too butthurt to support him considering that without him lending credence to this cash grab, it would have fallen flat. They had to get some quality mods for their rollout. And since i think he did more harm than good for other modders, i can empathize with him for being the fall guy. He got a ton of crap that should have been mainly directed at Steam / Bethesda, i don't see either group issuing apologies or retractions or clarifications.

[Leanne Molloy]

I agree that our issue is not with the modders themselves, but the rest of your post demonstrates exactly the kind of attitude that companies want in these types of situations. They rely on their customers to forget or just plain stop caring about their mistakes, no matter how major, and just bunker down and hope things will blow over as quickly as possible. It's the reason why EA always manages to get away with screwing people over day after day.

[Saul C]

Has anyone from Bethesda or Valve commented on the community reaction yet? Or are they just hoping the critics will shut up and go away?

[Rude Gurl]

lmao, people badmouthing millenials when their own generation is the one trashing the economy, trashing the environment, trashing the education system and making them pay more for it, putting them in debt for the rest of their lives for the privilege of getting a job above minimum wage (if they even can, because the job market right now is still terrible), nickel and diming them in every single way imaginable, from utilities and medical insurance to commodities like video games, and then have the gall to badmouth them because they're unhappy about it. [/offtopic]

I think what makes the new modding system even more dire is that Valve has a terrible track record when it comes to customer service. If you want any kind of refund from them, you have to drag them kicking and screaming to it. Surely, the best company to implement a system for gameplay mods that can easily break or not work! I have so much confidence in the company that can't even properly police their own Early Access and Greenlight stores!

[Rob Smith]

I'm more personally disgusted at the level of vitriolic hatred leveled at modders and the constant "death of modding" rants I've been seeing the past day or so. Its truly appalling and disappointing.

My only two issues with this is the fact that many of the most successful mods tend to another one just to function, which adds all sorts of unfortunate implications by itself. The other...is namely how I test mods. I can never tell whether or not I'm going to enjoy or use a mod, so I always install and test it out in my game first before I make any call on it. As far as I'm aware, Valve will nix you if you end up asking for a refund too many times, and said refunds only going to your Steam Wallet, meaning its theirs no matter what. Those two things need to be reworked before I can begin to say that this system is even viable.

That said, I would love it if this added those who are not involved in the community (Which would include developers themselves) a incentive to actually make a little extra cash on the side. It'd be nice to see, at any rate.

[Enny Labinjo]

In regards to Chesko, I'm disappointed, but he learned a lesson today. This is my opinion, I certainly don't know what exactly he went through. I'm sure he thought when he was contacted by Valve/Beth directly it was hopefully going to introduce a new career for him and I believe him when he says he thought it would take mods to the next level in a sense. I know that he knew in his heart that he shouldn't have kept Fore's animations in there, which is why he brought it up with Valve. But Valve told him not to worry about it and Chesko convinced himself they were right. It wasn't until he wanted out that he learned that Valve does not care about him at all and were just using him to promote this new program. Now they refuse to take down his workshop mods unless they are "legally compelled to do so." So essentially his mods are theirs. It's a hell of a lesson to learn when you give so much of yourself to projects you love.

[Je suis]

What a nice prospect a guy like this http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=428880958&searchtext= character beholds for the future.

Was brought on this bandwagon by either Valve or Bethesda. Was allowed by Valve to use Valve assets. Never did anything in any of Bethesda's gaming or mod communities. He then blatantly posts a http://jimo.co.uk/post/116990857404 about how he ventures out to create a paid mod for Skyrim. Using free community tools, free tutorials and free help from community forums. To then out of the Blue pop in with a wonderfully craptastic mod which gives you a crowbar for +/- 40 cents.

Nothing against him personally. I'm sure he's a great guy and everything.

But really: as if horse armor DLC wasn't bad enough.

And how is that? How can you validate taking 75% of the cut as anything else then a money grab? If they'd taken a much less substantial fee then you might have been on to something imho.

But really. Patreon and donation schemes can work when properly set up. Whole Youtube and Twitch channels flourish using those sources of income (the Youtube ads being an overestimated source of income). If they had really had the modders and the community's benefit at heart they would have allowed and stimulated exploration of those on the Workshop.

[Aliish Sheldonn]

I agree! Finding the right mod for me takes a lot of testing, so I probably won't buy a mod I'm not completely sure is going to be what I want. But I expect that that issue will be worked out, with time.

[benjamin corsini]

I 100% agree with this. He learned a tough lesson. His openness and honesty, in my eyes, is well appreciated and I have lost no respect for him or his work.

[Sunnii Bebiieh]

I saw a lot of comparisons between modding and side jobs like crafting in the previous threads, so I just want to say:

No. They're utterly and completely different

If you make a carving and I bought it, I expect you to provide support should it actually be faulty and I expect you to guarantee that the product is indeed what you're claiming, and that the product will always work

If you're making a custom RC model? Same thing
If you're making a Flappy Bird clone for Android? Same thing

When you make a carving, you're not polishing the David to be better, you're making something completely on your own. It's a product by any definition of the word, it doesn't depend on anything to function

If you make a custom RC model? Same thing

The closest one can compare modding to is Android/iOS app ecosystem, and do you know what you see when something good happens on Google Play / Apple App Store?

Countless clones were created, countless apps were created, and most of them do not even get downloaded

How many Flappy Bird clones have you seen?
How many Candy Crush clones have you seen?
How many Clash of Clans clones have you seen?
All of that happens because of greed, because of money.

In modding scene, there were no clones, at least not intentionally. Someone wants something, sees that the scene does not offer them something they want exactly, and set out to create it. If they need to, they make use of other mods as the basis, and perhaps use other mods to improve their own mod, creating a masterpiece

Wet and Cold removed all the custom models it took from other mods fearing for rights issue.
Do you see how money suddenly downgrades a mod overnight?

Countless mods rely on other mods to work, countless other mods rely on other mods to get better, all that can happen because everybody knows there's no money involved and it's all about labor of love.

I don't see how adding money into the equation would help.

The moment you make modding a legitimate industry, there will be people who don't have anything to do with modding suddenly releasing mods, trying to make money

And why did we even pay for the base game again?

[Brittany Abner]

All I'll say is this: I do not support this ideal however I find it's kinda nice.

In my belief, modding is more of a 'gambling hobby' type of thing. It's similar to making fan-made animations of something you like, basically. If people enjoy your world, they can DONATE money to you to help inspire you BUT your work should never require a payment.

[Georgia Fullalove]

Regarding "3rd party DLC"

The difference between mods and the cash grab DLCs created by corporations like, say, Saints Row IV's Anime Pack is that those were created not in free time but on the job, the corporations paid for the artists necessary to create those, as a side effect it is obligated to guarantee that the DLC work with any other DLC that it has released or will release

Who are you gonna blame if Awesome Gameplay Overhaul stops working due to an official DLC messing with the mod's target records?

The modder? Because his work no longer works?
Beth? Because they did get some money out of that mod?
Or yourself? Because you championed the "paid mod" scheme?

[Reven Lord]

I'm more afraid that they'll just flat pull the plug on the whole thing on it and be done. This not only may help increase the talent pool, but also give Bethesda the incentive to create a much better, thorough, Dev Kit then we would've gotten otherwise.

[Monika Krzyzak]

Notice how this thread got shorter? Good. Stay on topic.

This isn't a discussion for you to [censored] about your perceptions of millennials or people who play games on mobile apps and how that somehow impacts modding for PC games and whether or not to charge.

Kindly remember the moderator notes in this thread - keep it civil - toward each other, toward modders and toward anyone else, regardless of whether your are for, against or just shrugging over this news.

Thanks.

[Nathan Barker]

Regarding "hard work should be paid for"

I agree, but the key here is the "hard work", not "product". If you want to support modders, support modders, not the product they make. Why? Because that's the only way to keep their conscience in check. Greed can and will corrupt, they should not make something that will make them the most money, they should make something that they themselves want, which the community may appreciate.

The best work you ever taste are always a work of passion, a labor of love, ones that don't need to worry about people leaving them, ones that don't need to worry about money.

It is true that getting money will most certainly help modders. Hell, if I can make money from modding I won't be updating a software for a [censored] company that wrecks my brain every time I look at the source code, I'll be updating PCEAr.

But here's the thing: if I make my living by modding, eventually I'll no longer make mods that I want, I'll be too busy modding that I'll no longer be able to actually experience my mods anymore.

Day in day out I need to churn out new mods, mods that people might want to buy, mods that promise grandeurs, mods that can draw in more customers.

And where would the fun be?

[Valerie Marie]

I don't honestly have anything else to say, i assume Zenimax and Valve will eventually make a statement sooner rather than later.

It would indeed be nice to have some transparency, as misinformation is rife.

[Tania Bunic]

If modders want to "sell" their mods, so be it, don't much like it, but its their business and their mod. My concern with this, and what makes me hate this so much is the possibility or even likeliness that future Beth games will have all mods become pay to DL if you want to use them, that would utterly destroy this whole thing. Been using mods since Morrowind, even modded for it back in the day, its one of my favorite parts of ES games, would hate to see it all thrown away like this if it happens.

Could they really not have worked something out with add on DL poppup screens to monetize mods or something instead of this? What if Nexus goes that way sharing that add revenue with the Modder of the mod in question, will Beth and Valve move to shut these free to DL sights down? All in all, a terrible decision by Bethesda, really disappointed with them right now...

[Ezekiel Macallister]

As long as people are rational about this sort of thing and don't pay money for [censored] mods, this should turn out alright (though changes will occur as always happens when money is introduced).

If a new modder appear and starts charging for every mod they make? Ignore them. They will either go to free mods or leave. Money-grabbers jumping on the bandwagon are not the sort of modders that this community needs.

If a known modder comes out and says 'x new mod I'm working on is going to be paid' then instead of howling them down about the money, just consider if the 50c or whatever that they ask for is reasonable for the amount of content in the mod. If it's not don't buy it, again either the mod will fade away into obscurity, or it will go to free.

The last thing we want is anger and hatred dividing up the community and driving good modders away. Deaththreats aren't going to make a mod free, it'll just make the creator leave, and the last thing such a long running and friendly community needs is people leaving.

I would never have charged for any mod that I made in the past (nor would even asked for donations) as I worked with others and learnt from things they did to make my mods, along with my own experiments. My modding was done as a hobby and to learn how game systems worked, the whole reason I left modding was to purse actual game development instead. But I can see very large mods like DLC size quest chains, or world overhauls that could and should work with this paid model.

But any modder looking to make paid mods has rocks in their head if they think 25% is anywhere near enough for the work that is put in. On that figure alone modders should boycott this program. And if mod users want to support their favorite modders, look to give donations which a much larger percentage actually goes to the modder. As soon as modding is made into an 'industry' we need to be able to discuss reasonable terms with the publishers the same as a union would do in other industries, unfortunately we obviously don't have a union and are having the terms dictated to us.

[Inol Wakhid]

who is to say you can't be passionate about something and still put it for sale though? Artists who only paint on their days off are passionate about their art, but they still are aloud to sell their paintings at the local flea market.. your local Busker who is a university student is passionate about his music, but he can still sell a CD he made in his home studio while he is playing his music in the downtown park between classes

[Alexandra Louise Taylor]

The discussion is going around in circles. The bottom line is: if you don't want to pay for mods, then don't. The morals from both modders and devs/Steam can be discussed all day long without any productive outcome. Will it change the future of modding and the community as we know it? perhaps. But as long as future games remain open to allow modded content to be distributed for free, I see nothing to worry about.

~DE

[Tiff Clark]

I say, if the worst comes to pass and everybody ended up accepting "paid mods", let it be 75% for modder and 25% for Valve (file hosting and community policing cost)

Right now, we're essentially getting handed a Thalmor Ultimatum: 25% of the price, no official support from Bethesda, no money until you have $100 AND no policing from Valve and Bethesda.

It's like paying Bethesda to get yourself insulted by people who don't read the README, that's low, even for a masochist

[gary lee]

its not an Ultimatum, as no one is forced to put their mod for sale, if they don't want to they don't have to. it is simply an option they have avaliable, if they do not want to use that option they can put it on the Workshop for free, or on the Nexus

[Siidney]

You're trying to compare actual, physical objects with no strings attached with an unofficial, unsupported software that requires you to pay $60 before you can even start to use it, that simply can't work.

Will your CD continue to work even if Burke get hit by a truck? Absolutely
Does your painting require you to put on an Oakley glasses before you can see it? No, of course not.

The closest thing modding can be compared to is Windows software development. Do you see Microsoft getting a cut every time an indie company sells a Windows game on steam?