[keri seymour]

Because the previous thread is over 200 posts:

Here is the mod post from the last one: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516900-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-11/?p=23946138

[Jani Eayon]

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1516900-discussion-for-workshop-paid-mods-thread-11/

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Copy of the FAQ

[Sanctum]

I'm saying a bug report isn't QA or "working to perfect the mod", as you know. Sophistry will get you nowhere.

[Adam]

Well, this one has the FAQ, so...

I'll post my post, since I think it's pretty important. This is replying to TenderHooligan back in thread 10 or something, I forgot

I haven't had the chance to read the forums, so this is replying to an old post

My PCEar has 30k downloads and 500ish endorsemants, some thanked me that I managed to make something that fits their taste, some said I really should make the process much easier, others report problems.

Is that appreciation? Yes, yes it is. It is literally impossible to please everyone. Case in point: keep modding free and you'll piss off greedy CEOs trying to outplay the Devil, so I kick out the entitled kids from my mental palace and I see someone saying that they're happy with my work, that's appreciation.

Do we really have to rely on numbers? 300? 500? 1 million? Why does it matter? Why the hell were you modding in the first place?

Did you do it because you want your game to be much better?
or did you do it because you want to be the PewDiePie of modding? The Justin Bieber of modding? Famous and rich and whatnot?

Because bro, if you did it for the latter, I've got bad news for you: you're dealing with the Internet, they don't care who you are.


Again, do you really need cold, hard numbers to make you feel better? PCEA and PCEAr never took off as well as I'd hoped they'd be when I was still developing them, but that's fine for me, because worst case? My game is infinitely better than before. I wanted the game to change, so I changed it. Turns out the majority don't share my taste, but that's fine: niche taste is niche taste, some things are simply not for everybody.

And?

You're using the Internet as evidence that bad guys outnumber the good guys, which is already true since before Anonymous was born. I have great respect for modders that I can remember: USKP team, SkyUI team, SKSE team, Xinavro, fore, those guys made my copy of Skyrim a copy of Skyrim that I love. Partially probably because I have a technical background so I can feel the difficulty they must've faced creating those.

I'd be lying if I say I endorse every single mod I liked, I've forgotten the endorse button exists since 2 years ago and some exotic mods are simply not available from Nexus. I'm also lying if I say I've always been like this and that I've never been a self-entitled brat mocking people for not doing something to my taste, hell I mock Skyrim's UI team every time I can, and deep down I know their dignity were probably at -9HP and bleeding when they program that UI in.

Sure, those people I just mentioned has never received any direct value from me, partly because I still don't have a credit card till this day, but really, is money the end-all? Because if you're motivated by money, then you're no longer trying to mod, you're trying to make a product, and with product comes consequences

Of course I don't. There is no middle ground: making modding a job means developers should cut back on content precisely because they'll make more money when they make less content. Ever heard people complaining about Oblivion's dungeons being repetitive? Beth tried to deal with that assigning more than one person on dungeon designing. If modding is an industry Beth can get profit from, they'll deal with it by making said one person make even less dungeons, so modders have the virtual real-estate to build their dungeon on. This is the company that released Horse Armor DLC, what do you think they'll do with this?

For each $25 someone made, VALVe made $30 and Bethesda made freaking $45.

Think about that for a second: you're paying Bethesda to throw you under the bus if your product stops working. It's like getting duped and shamed at the same time!

There can be no middle ground, because the middle ground involves accepting the situation as-is, the horribly low cut, the absolute lack of support from both VALVe and Bethesda, everything. Look at Chesko: VALVe's lawyers told him it's OK to steal someone else's work without actually asking for consent, now he can't even remove his own work from Workshop, VALVe's lawyers have literally claimed his work, while his reputation - built from the ground up through years of good will - got driven to the ground with no VALVe nor Bethesda's employee in sight helping him in his time of dire need. The worst part? Both VALVe and Bethesda already took their cut of the money.

Is THAT the middle ground you want? A middle ground where you're nothing but an expendable source of income for Bethesda?

VALVe is asking if you want to be Bethesda's slave and you're trying to defend that. It's awful, is what it is. Even freelancers don't have to deal with such a backlash on their own, and freelancers usually get the worst contracts, what with no work insurance and all.

When you sell mod, you need to watch out for the business side of things: marketing, DMCA, mod piracy, royalties, everything. The entire reason modding community could thrive is because we don't have to worry about that.

Need something from somebody else? "Hey, can I use that?" "Sure, go ahead".
Somebody else out-modded your mod? "Hey, cool! There's a better version of my mod and I don't have to maintain it!"

And that is only from the modder's perspective. From the gamers' perspective, there will be people who don't even have anything to do with modding since the dawn of time but suddenly they churn out mods after mods at ludicrous prices, oversaturating the market with excrements nobody really want.

Do you know how many mods are available in Skyrim nexus alone?
Magic - Alchemy: 243
Magic - Gameplay: 348
Magic - Spells: 1,444

That's almost 2000 mods from 3 categories alone. Have you ever tried to sift through all that stuff to find the hidden gem that you might want? have you ever tried to sift through all the mods available in nexus alone?

Imagine doing that with thousands upon thousands of 99 cents crappy mods trying to cash in.

Back in 2012, when App Store only has a measly count of 650k apps in it, Adeven said that https://gigaom.com/2012/07/31/app-store-infested-with-zombie-software-claims-anolytics-startup-adeven/, that's at least 300k apps sitting forgotten by everyone after the first few hours, mostly because you only have so much time to sift through heaps upon heaps of garbage before you're tired and just go with the most popular. According to Wikipedia, App Store currently has about 1,4 million apps. Even if you spend an entire month sifting through apps, you won't finish the task, because you also need to download and test the app before you can decide whether it's garbage or not.

THAT is the future of PC game modding, should we accept this.

Considering that you counted "appreciation" by how many people downloaded and endorsed your mod, see how many appreciations you'll get when your mod never gets downloaded at all.

Suddenly, that 400 endorsemants look exciting, eh?

[Emma Pennington]

Koihime, I'd appreciate it if you addressed my point about history showing what happens to modding communities when money is introduced - and how you think this can be avoided, if you think this is a good idea.

That's the biggest obstacle to all of this, and you've yet to make a good point on that. the 'Free market' argument fell flat on its face in the past, and it will now.

[Killer McCracken]

Then don't pay, solve your problem. Don't attack the other modders for that. I mean, I'll be honest. I can see buying exactly two mods on the workshop for me to support those authors, and I'm tempted to donate to one instead of buying the mod. But the overwhelming majority of my mod order is located from the Nexus or other non SW sources, and will continue to be so. And that is how you stop this from being a thing. You don't buy from it.

[Charlotte Buckley]

I can see a lot of happy costumers while exploring some of WS paid mods.
Sometimes I get the feeling that gaming this days is ruled by the casuals.
I don't think this is going away.
I hope the system can evolve into something with better balance.

[nath]

I was actually (until now) unaware that GTA could be modded. c.c Honestly, I come from different communities entirely. However.

I doubt it can be avoided now.

[meg knight]

Wait, since this thread will be merged anyway, I better post in the correct thread

[Zosia Cetnar]

If they make another UI mod that is nothing like SkyUI, that's cool. I wouldn't mind trying it out, even. I just don't like people who make mods that mimick very very closely other mods. Because that's ....

[Connor Wing]

Yes, I do. And you know as well as I do that formal QA departments are picked by the company, and bug reports by end users are never considered QA.

So this is a silly argument.

[Milagros Osorio]

GTA S:A and IV in particular, yes, had great mods. Same thing happening with V already, it seems.

And correct, if this system doesn't go down soon, it will spell the end of the ES modding community as it once was. And that's a damn shame.

[lacy lake]

I doubt they could make one that's nothing like the other. There are bound to be similarities. And besides, if that's the style the want to make, they shouldn't be stopped. Look at the real world, lots of search engines are similar in appearance, and some even do what Google does, with showing a definition when you search a word, for instance.

[Marie Maillos]

Do you... do you even know what QA does? :/

Because reporting bugs is exactly what QA's job is. Bug fixing is handled by another department (hint: it has "programming" in the name). Never let programmers test their own program, they'll never find the obscure bugs people will find in actual, live scenario.

[BEl J]

That is what exactly? innovation and meeting the markets wants?

[Laura Elizabeth]

Man, it's been a long time since Morrowind...so many other games...I was using both, MWSE and ME. They weren't compatible to begin with but later became I believe. I only remember it was essential for manual blocking and diverse combat improivng Mods. I believe the Journal Mod also relied on one of them.

Your attitude is most noble, but I'm afraid the last copple of days showed at least half the community doesn't deserve any moral integrity whatsoever. I'd understand it though, if you'd be concerned of not being able to see yourself in the mirror again...I have to admit...I'm beyond this and hope anyone will follow...swollow the pride and utilize the new system exclusive on the Workshop to enhance the 'free' community. I'm dreaming of a Modders bank account where all revenues go into and will be used to improve the community all together...and be it only because of people are more motivated doing something for money...there's not only the core of modding, you also have to see the peripherie, like websites, wikis, patches, providers etc. etc. etc.

[SWagg KId]

How can a mod B that does the exact same job as a mod A can be nothing like it?

[Taylrea Teodor]

I just merged the two threads that were started for thread #12. In case anyone was confuzzled.

[Rach B]

By.. being a UI replacer that isn't the same look? I don't think that's too much to ask. Unless Skyrim's UI IS that hardwired.

[RaeAnne]

@KN

I think that'll be one of those "taste" things that we'll always disagree on

I think that as long as you do not directly copy, there's nothing wrong--like if someone made another Mod that had the exact same layout as SkyUI, but was all their own code, I'd feel that was perfectly fine. But then, some people will disagree, so... Yeah, each to their own

I think the bigger issue is motive:

1) I don't think anyone can argue if it's an honest 'mistake' of 'copying' someone else's mod; multiple people can have the same idea, after all.

2) I think wanting to provide an alternative is fine, especially if there are flaws that have never been resolved (see, for example, discontinued Mods) or if, like here, there's a payment involved and you disagree with that.

3) I think copying someone's mod JUST to spite them because they're behind a paywall is not appropriate. The problem is, I doubt many people would admit that :/

@Spikes,

Coding for one thing-- most of my Mods are 90% scripting. I could make a Mod that, for example, makes all NPC Vampires explode when outside; someone else could make a Mod that does the exact same thing, except in a totally different method--on the surface they'd be the same, but behind the scenes could be completely different. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about here: mimicking the effect, but in your own way.

[Monique Cameron]

If I found a bug that is good enough to help you find the problem, then I've done some work that would normally cost you some man-hours, be it accidentally or not. You say that I should never be compensated for that, and here you are championing that modders deserve to get paid?

That's double standard, right there.

[James Baldwin]

Yeah, that is a taste thing. I'll admit it. And it is true that in some cases, the difference will be the coding style.

[John Moore]

Ok, no one replied when I asked in the last post, so I'll ask again:

Does anyone know how many mods are currently hidden on the Nexus because of this?

I couldn't find it in the site stats.

Dark0ne said 75 or something... but that was a while ago. It would be interesting to know.

[matt]

The problem is not the technical side of this. The problem is the drama/quarrel that results from it.

[Ronald]

A user "reporting" bugs and actual paid QA are two totally different things.

Either way, a user telling a developer about bugs doesn't mean the developer has to suddenly pay that person.