[Camden Unglesbee]

So, to recap:

-Small financial gain for the modders (25%)

-No quality assurance or real refund policy for the end users

-No support (MODs are provided as they are)

-No intellectual property protection (let the community sort these little dramas themselves)

Both as modder and as end user, this system doesn't look very appealing

[His Bella]

Don't forget people in other countries have to deal with the bad exchange rates making the mods way more expensive for them then say people in North America or Europe.

[Hope Greenhaw]

That brings up an interesting question.

What are a mod sellers responsibilities [income/sales tax] for sales in other countries?

[naome duncan]

As is evidenced by what people are actually buying right now, it's the other way around. The consumers on board with this are used to micro transactions for minuscule additions to their games. Pretty swords and armours are the way to go if you wish to make a buck behind the pay wall.

Big quality projects require many more then just one person to make. Depending on what you can do yourself, limited by skill and/or time. What's needed: voice acting, building of exterior/interior cells, modelling, texturing, scripting, scenario writing, proof reading, Q&A, legal counselling (<- every business requires this), etc, etc.

A project like Falskaar got huge help and support from the comunity when asked, resources and time were shared for free. When a mod is intended for the pay wall, it's far less likely anyone will be willing to chime in and help only for kudos in the credits section. Those people will more then not require financial compensation for their work, just like the mod will be requiring financial compensation. With the relatively limited amount of revenue that is to be expected versus the relative cost involved, a sustainable income from projects like that is far from to be expected.

I firmly reject the notion we'll get to see more mods like Falskaar, or bigger projects then Falskaar, just because there's now money involved. I firmly believe that those who are interested in cashing behind the pay wall are much more likely to go for the quick and easy way of things. Churn out some models and textures, slap it into a micro transaction, reek in the cash.

And besides all that. If the intention is to make 10x bigger projects then Falskaar. Go get a licence for one of the many excellent cheap engines out there and go build and release a game on Greenlight and/or early access. If it's any good it's far more likely to gain any attention and potentially can generate way more income then what a "mere mod" can do.

[Niisha]

Very big topic, something that every seller has to sort himself out, no way around it.

BUT that there isn't much of information or help (except the legal texts) from Valve or Beth that people have to care about this topic (as it is/was the same with youtube btw.). It shows that they simply don't care if they get in troubles. There are now a lot of inexperienced people expected who think wrongfully that everything is "e a s y" now.

One of the signs that it is clearly not about supporting the modding community as Gabe loves to state.

[Victoria Bartel]

It occurs to me that what Bethesda are doing here is trading the good will of their players and the reputation of their brand for cash. I don't suppose anyone actually said "hey, we don't need all this good will - let's find a way to sell some of it off?" Nevertheless, I think that's the net effect of this paid mods exercise.

Which, on one level at least, is fair enough. I don't support the way in which Beth and Valve are trying to monetise the modding community, but considering the matter purely in terms of reputation, I'd have to concede that it's Bethesda's brand, and if they want to tarnish it, then that is their business.

Still, I would question the wisdom of the strategy: it seems unduly short-termist. In the short term they get a cash injection; in the long term they've alienated a lot of potential buyers and destroyed one of their games' big attractions: a free and vibrant modding community.

I don't suppose anyone from Bethesda is reading this thread. It's kind of a full time job and they all have jobs already, I know. But if they are, I'd invite them to consider this: it's only a short term strategy for Bethesda. For Valve it's a win-win. In the short term, Valve get a large chunk of the revenue stream and in the long term, if Beth end up with a toxic brand and an alienated userbase, well Valve get to weaken a competitor as well as profit from their good name.

Think about it.

[Austin Suggs]

Where I live (Netherlands but probably valid for much of the EU) you'll have a few options, for example:

- you register yourself as a business (costs money and has legal and practical repercussions) and grant yourself and your contributors an income as employees or freelancers,

- you declare the income generated as extra income besides your regular income and pay a hefty % in taxes.

You don't want trouble when filling in your tax forms. When the greedy bloodhounds employed by the government connect the dots you may expect hefty fines when the tax forms don't check out. And they normally do connect dots. Everything is known, everything is registered.

Also, when operating it as a business of course you'll pay taxes over proceeds, pay taxes over wages paid, etc, etc. And you'll be obliged to have accounting and legal services. Besides all that, those who receive income from the business will also pay taxes on their income.

Off course there are other possibilities but with every possibility a substantial amount of the proceeds will flow away.

I do believe that Steam is responsible for the sales tax here though. So at least that is covered.

[Ludivine Dupuy]

As I've been saying and others have been saying NUMEROUS TIMES NOW, no that's not going to be how it works. Big mods that reach Falskaar or Wrymstooth level suffer the most under this system as they're to big of a risk for most people due to the refund period being so short.

[.X chantelle .x Smith]

deleted

[Steph]

Ironically, I have donated to several modders (I never have before) because of this mess in the past couple of days. But, I will NEVER pay for a mod, per se.

[GPMG]

I'm going to look at switching one of my workshop mods to paid, just to see what sort of options there are. I've only read about it, haven't seen for myself.

[phil walsh]

Reposting my last post because more people need to see this.

[Music Show]

Let's be logical: why put a zero price on a mod if you just can release it in the free category?

I'm aware that I was not the first one to say that.

[hannaH]

Not sure if I should link to a chan site buuuuuttt.....

http://8ch.net/v/res/3437078.html

Valve planned this from the very beginning. Ever since the Workshop systems went up. Valve was the one who decided the initial 25% cut. Valve was the one that pushed this decision to finally implement it. Bethesda didn't decide on that cut nor did I think it was their idea. So Valve technically lied and threw Bethesda under the bus. Deflection 101.

[Danii Brown]

And in a few years we'll be paying for patches, and thanking them for providing such great support for their customers


Well, even if so, unless they take their future games off Steam, that doesn't really matter, does it?

[vanuza]

GabeN said in the Reddit that theyre gonna add a $0 option. That isn't going to fix anything. Modders just wont use it. "A pay what you want $0 option" needs to be enforced on Steams end, ie always have the option to download for free, regardless what the mod author fixes his/her prices at.

[gary lee]

I don't think Bethesda/Zenimax is without blame. You don't simply keep things such as these secret from your business partners.

Even admitting that the reported figures originate from a decision taken inside Valve with no external input (I don't believe it for a moment), Zenimax would be, at best, still complacent because someone inside the company was bound to know it well in advance!

[Jennie Skeletons]

And then a few years after that, we'll have to pay monthly subscription fees for using Steam.

[lolli]

After having thought hard about this over yet another night, I have come to the following conclusion.

We, the modders, initiated this whole thing. We were the ones that created a way to get around the 'mods must be free' clause in the CK's EULA by setting up the donation system. Bethesda didn't do it, Steam didn't do it, WE did it. No modder ever made any significant amount of money out of it, but we made it a thing. WE were the ones that made the original arguments about how modders deserved compensation and how it would inspire new heights of creativity. Once the system was in place there's been constant complaints about how innefective it is.

Bethesda is a business from the get go. They are not and never were a charity. They allowed and supported modding for no other reason than it makes good business sense. They made the games to begin with. They provided the Creation Kit, a modified version of the tool that created the game itself and provided it FREE OF CHARGE for modders to use, with only two main caveats. Modders can't steal copyrighted material to make mods and mods have to be free.

How can we criticize Bethesda for looking at what we did and saying "Okay, you want to be compensated. We agree with you, here's a system that you can use to get paid for modding if that's what you want to do. BUT, we want OUR cut also."

Now, the whole modding community is shaking itself apart because Bethesda did for us what we wanted but could not do for ourselves. WE are the hypocrites in this.

EDIT: That said, the Steam model is a horrible model.

[Jodie Bardgett]

Notice that he said "$0" instead of "free", I assume that it'll have [censored] like "you need to have purchased something in steam store, gifts don't count"

[djimi]

Is there anything now that prevents bethesda from packaging mods together as bundles

[Mrs. Patton]

I'm already thinking about abandoning the ship with Beth's games, since they don't seem to be going to the direction I'd like, so I consider paid mods to be the final nail in the coffin. Not being happy with the vanilla game will definitely hurt more, when the fixes might be behind an additional price. Building up a modded game can be stressful even now, and you have little room for experiementing and compability issues when it's your money on the line.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bought Requiem for Skyrim, if it had a price tag. I tried SkyRe first, and ended up switching to Requiem almost immediately. They're both huge and great mods, and they deserve a price. If I had spent money on SkyRe, I probably would have settled for it, not experiencing Requiem at all. And there's a lot of mods that end up being unchecked for my game anyways.

I can't blame the modders for taking money. There's a lot of talented people that deserve it, for fixing and polishing, to changing the game almost completely. Only thing that bothers me is the small amount the modder gets from the work they've done. 25% (?) percent is too low.

This is just how it will affect me. I've read about how it affects the mod community, and there's a lot of problems all this will introduce. I can't offer a donation button as a solution, since all I've offered for the mod makers is my mostly silent appreciation. I'm a bad person and money is tight, so I doubt that will change in the future, even if there will be a more visible donation button.

So for me, it just means I'll pass on paid mods. Passing on mods means I won't be enjoying the games as much as I used to, and I'll end up passing on the games themselves.

[CYCO JO-NATE]

No worry the next steps are surely allready prepared, like the FO4 GECK suddenly isn't free with the game anymore...

We mod developers? You are not talking for all of them and espescially not about me. But yes the split in the community that happens as soon as this is implented, drama, ... was clear and seems to be deliberate from Bethesda. Also concratulation Beth excellent timing. Sorry no one can tell me they didn't expected this.

[Steeeph]

What about not giving them ideas, hey?

That would be silly, unless they plan on removing the free mods section, forcing modders to sell their stuff...

[Chris Guerin]

Why not? If someone wants to pay, let them. It's in Valve and Beth's interest to have more mods in the paid, not free category, even if it's only pay what you want. A little money is better than no money, this is the mindset which created this paid mods situation in the first place. What I don't understand is why anyone would want to support the modders through the Workshop instead of a direct donation, but if it's the only option...

edit: nvm, the bundle question was probably about forced bundles. AFAIK modders still have to agree to have their mods included.