Discussion for Workshop Paid Mods - Thread 14

Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:16 am

"One, you love the game and community and want to see it grow and get stronger. Two, you are making mods to pad out a portfolio for a career in game development."

For over ten years no one got paid for making mods (at least not directly). If people were upset about not getting paid to make mods, it wouldn't have taken off. Look at how much great content was made by fans for Bethesda's last 4 games.

Those who have wanted a career in game development has pursued it. Two that I can name off the top of my head is the guy that made Falkskarr and the guy that made the Witcher 1 Full combat Rebalance mod. Falkskarr guy is now at Bungie, FCR guy is now at CDProjekt Red and, I believe, is working on the Witcher 3. IF memory serves, another guy that modded just got hire at Gearbox recently.

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leigh stewart
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:14 pm

Regardless, disk check is a form of DRM.

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Pat RiMsey
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:20 am

So on the blog it states:

I'm surprised that wasn't followed up with a sentence that says "Now we intend to get that money back from you modders mwhahahaha"

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Darlene Delk
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:30 am

I feel like saying something is the opposite of what you stand for is a pretty clear statement on the matter.

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brandon frier
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:30 pm

"Less than 1% has ever made one." I'm feeling rather elitist here, but honestly 1% do you think they would care if all modders vanished off the planet tomorrow?

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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:46 am

However it doesn't address the concerns of the community as to what they plan on doing. Talk is cheap especially when they could just do something about it.

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Rachael Williams
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:08 am

Okay, thanks. I don't see why that entails your position that there are only two possible valid reasons why anyone should ever go into modding, or why one going into it for another reason is doing something wrong. I dislike the new system for other reasons, such as how it changes the nature of the community, as well as how it will confine some of the very best mods to steam ws.
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patricia kris
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:36 am

Just got the announcement notification on my steam.

We did it. Paid mods are gone. http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

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Yvonne
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:48 am

I suppose it's a personal opinion. I apologize if I made it seem like I was stating a fact.

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Danielle Brown
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:31 pm

"Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop then he made in all the years he asked for donations."

Valve put out a figure of making around 10k with the mods, at IIRR 3 days. Given that they take 30%, it's around 30k total. For one day, this'll be 10k again. 25% - what the modder gets - of this is 2500. Divided by the amount of mods released by popular mod makers - putting it to ~15 - the result is around 150 euros.

So now, monthly income at this rate is 30 x 150 = 4500 dollars.

Supposing this is true, how long until the market will be saturated with stolen assets, as well as quickly and poorly made, yet well marketed, cheap mods ?

Given that some quality checkup has already been done, with quite tragicomic results - http://imgur.com/gallery/bqcla - the conclusion is something along the lines of,

Fasten your seatbelt, Dorothy. Kansas is going bye-bye.

Edit: grammar and internal logic

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Hope Greenhaw
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:02 am

Of course you feel that. That's why PR works.

In reality though, it's a weasel claim. It doesn't commit them to any specific course of action - it just expresses a purported opinion of an unpopular course of action, while leaving the opportunity to "regrettably have to" take that course of action later.

If they really intended to not do it, they would've just said that they intend to not do it. They didn't say that. That's not an accident.
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victoria johnstone
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:40 pm

Here's a counter argument: instead of charing for said mod, the modder hands it off to someone else or the community to take it up and finish it. I'm currently working with another on just such a project for Morrowind. If the mod she wanted to fix and enhance was behind a paywall, this would have never happened.

Modders are not developers for the reasons Illy mentioned. If Bethesda wants to treat us as such, they should contract with us to make mods and provide the same support they provide their in-house development teams. Instead we get "you can charge for your work, but we're not going to stand behind you." This whole thing has been a slap in the face for modders and a bad business decision on both Valve's and Bethesda's parts.

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Antony Holdsworth
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:31 pm

Owning all of the BGS PC products and expansion including ESO, I am ashamed of BGS and the whole paid mod issue. I always held BGS in high regard but no longer. I have changed my Steam review of Skyrim to negative, signed up to the change.org petition and posted a negative review on Metacritic.

The modding community is special and should be left alone.

Let Valve set up a donation button for Mod developers to reward them.

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Claudia Cook
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:28 pm

Hooray! Is that real?

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K J S
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:02 pm

For anyone who who language reasons can't see the Bethblog at present here is the post - use your translator of preference

Spoiler
We believe mod developers are just that: developers. We love that Valve has given new choice to the community in how they reward them, and want to pass that choice along to our players. We are listening and will make changes as necessary.

We have a long history with modding, dating back to 2002 with The Elder Scrolls Construction Set. It’s our belief that our games become something much more with the promise of making it your own. Even if you never try a mod, the idea you could do anything is at the core of our game experiences. Over the years we have met much resistance to the time and attention we put into making our games heavily moddable. The time and costs involved, plus the legal hurdles, haven’t made it easy. Modding is one of the reasons Oblivion was re-rated from T to M, costing us millions of dollars. While others in the industry went away from it, we pushed more toward it.

We are always looking for new ways to expand modding. Our friends at Valve share many of the same beliefs in mods and created the Steam Workshop with us in 2012 for Skyrim, making it easier than ever to search and download mods. Along with Skyrim Nexus and other sites, our players have many great ways to get mods.

Despite all that, it’s still too small in our eyes. Only 8% of the Skyrim audience has ever used a mod. Less than 1% has ever made one.

In our early discussions regarding Workshop with Valve, they presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had. They asked if we would consider doing the same.

This was in 2012 and we had many questions, but only one demand. It had to be open, not curated like the current models. At every step along the way with mods, we have had many opportunities to step in and control things, and decided not to. We wanted to let our players decide what is good, bad, right, and wrong. We will not pass judgment on what they do. We’re even careful about highlighting a modder on this blog for that very reason.

Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy. They are not forcing us, or any other game, to do it. They are opening a powerful new choice for everyone.

We believe most mods should be free. But we also believe our community wants to reward the very best creators, and that they deserve to be rewarded. We believe the best should be paid for their work and treated like the game developers they are. But again, we don’t think it’s right for us to decide who those creators are or what they create.

We also don’t think we should tell the developer what to charge. That is their decision, and it’s up to the players to decide if that is a good value. We’ve been down similar paths with our own work, and much of this gives us déjà vu from when we made the first DLC: Horse Armor. Horse Armor gave us a start into something new, and it led to us giving better and better value to our players with DLC like Shivering Isles, Point Lookout, Dragonborn and more. We hope modders will do the same.

Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also. If the system shows that it needs curation, we’ll consider it, but we believe that should be a last resort.

There are certainly other ways of supporting modders, through donations and other options. We are in favor of all of them. One doesn’t replace another, and we want the choice to be the community’s. Yet, in just one day, a popular mod developer made more on the Skyrim paid workshop than he made in all the years he asked for donations.

Revenue Sharing

Many have questioned the split of the revenue, and we agree this is where it gets debatable. We’re not suggesting it’s perfect, but we can tell you how it was arrived at.

First Valve gets 30%. This is standard across all digital distributions services and we think Valve deserves this. No debate for us there.

The remaining is split 25% to the modder and 45% to us. We ultimately decide this percentage, not Valve.

Is this the right split? There are valid arguments for it being more, less, or the same. It is the current industry standard, having been successful in both paid and free games. After much consultation and research with Valve, we decided it’s the best place to start.

This is not some money grabbing scheme by us. Even this weekend, when Skyrim was free for all, mod sales represented less than 1% of our Steam revenue.

The percentage conversation is about assigning value in a business relationship. How do we value an open IP license? The active player base and built in audience? The extra years making the game open and developing tools? The original game that gets modded? Even now, at 25% and early sales data, we’re looking at some modders making more money than the studio members whose content is being edited.

We also look outside at how open IP licenses work, with things like Amazon’s Kindle Worlds, where you can publish fan fiction and get about 15-25%, but that’s only an IP license, no content or tools.

The 25% cut has been operating on Steam successfully for years, and it’s currently our best data point. More games are coming to Paid Mods on Steam soon, and many will be at 25%, and many won’t. We’ll figure out over time what feels right for us and our community. If it needs to change, we’ll change it.

The Larger Issue of the Gaming Community and Modding

This is where we are listening, and concerned, the most. Despite seeming to sit outside the community, we are part of it. It is who we are. We don’t come to work, leave and then ‘turn off’. We completely understand the potential long-term implications allowing paid mods could mean. We think most of them are good. Some of them are not good. Some of them could hurt what we have spent so long building. We have just as much invested in it as our players.

Some are concerned that this whole thing is leading to a world where mods are tied to one system, DRM’d and not allowed to be freely accessed. That is the exact opposite of what we stand for. Not only do we want more mods, easier to access, we’re anti-DRM as far as we can be. Most people don’t know, but our very own Skyrim DLC has zero DRM. We shipped Oblivion with no DRM because we didn’t like how it affected the game.

There are things we can control, and things we can’t. Our belief still stands that our community knows best, and they will decide how modding should work. We think it’s important to offer choice where there hasn’t been before.

We will do whatever we need to do to keep our community and our games as healthy as possible. We hope you will do the same.

Bethesda Game Studios

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Far'ed K.G.h.m
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:43 pm

If this is for real, I am resolving to donate to all of my favourite mod authors from now on. Maybe just a little, but it's worth it to me! I'll set aside $20 and divide it between my favourite modders, perhaps. We should all do the same!

This day is a great day.

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Sasha Brown
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:19 am

That's amazing - what a turnaround - it does seem a little unreal

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Isabel Ruiz
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:39 pm

i havent played this game in months or used this forum in months but i'm here to express how angry i am. i literally cannot believe that this is happening and i'm actually really on the fence about further supporting bethesda and valve.

i know it's stupid and probably not going to do anything but is there a petition out there that i can sign so we can mount pressure on these capitalist scumbags?

HAHAHA GUESS I SHOULD READ THE TOPIC BEFORE POSTING

STILL THO

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cutiecute
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:05 pm

Seems pretty real. It was real enough for the steam workshop group thing to have a popup notification thing. The user who posted it also belongs to the Valve steam group.

I don't know whats crazier. The fact that this happened in the first place, or the fact that two major videogame companies listened to the community when they were throwing a absolute [censored] storm

Valve, Bethesda, you have regained my respect over this. Thank you.

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C.L.U.T.C.H
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:41 pm

Good to see you, Ni!

But why are you angry?!?!?!?! We won! If I'm not a fool and have fallen for a hoax.

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cutiecute
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:57 am

Valve caved, so be thankful. You can go back to never paying for the mods now.
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Jade Muggeridge
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:53 pm

If this is indeed over, at least for the moment, Beth has my support once again. If this is true, I am very relieved, as I want to throw my money at you BGS!

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Greg Cavaliere
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:35 am

:celebration:

It's been pretty crazy these last few days, hasn't it?

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Josee Leach
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:11 pm

Me too, I'm actually amazed that they decided to do this. This is actually incredible. I am curious about how recent a decision it was, since BGS just posted a whole response to the topic today.

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Unstoppable Judge
 
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Post » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:54 am

"This is not some money grabbing scheme by us"

This has to be satire.

You take the biggest cut, while throwing the scraps off the table to the modder and then claim this isn't a money grabbing scheme? That you somehow care for the modder? Why can't you at least be honest with us? I'll take honesty and greed over this poor attempt at damage control, which is more mocking than anything.

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Steph
 
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