I don’t know if I’m the first asking about this around here, maybe I am, maybe not, no matter.
I’m opening this discussion because I intend to make a lichcraft mod for oblivion, and I want to be as lore-friendly as possible.
I opened the same discusion on the Imperial Library, but with no luck so I was hoping I could get more people talking about this on this forum.

I’m only aware of Oblivion lore (what is found on books in the game and npc conversation), since I only played TES4, and information regarding liches and lichdom (the process of becoming a lich) is very scarce.

There was a book I read called “The Path of Transcendence” which you might as well know, is the diary of a necromancer that wanted to become a lich.
Although he never talks about anything specific about the process of becoming a lich, he mentions vaguely the tedious process to construct the sands of resolve.
It seems it would be necessary to:

• Sacrifice many innocents. For what exactly?
  
• Resurrection of his servants to aid him in his tasks. What tasks?
  
• And a week-long ritual. What sort of ritual?

These are some of my questions as to what I need to know to make the Lichdom process as immersive as possible for Oblivion.

But now more questions arise.
What if the steps explained on that book, aren’t the only ones to get to the Lichdom state?
This is the part I need more help.
I know there are several other references on this topic on Oblivion. However there could be other references in Elder Scrolls previous titles like Morrowind and such, but I don’t have the time to search for every other in-game book in the hopings of finding good information on this topic.
So if anyone of you have knowledge or a strong opinion about this, be sure to reply and share your thoughts.

On Lichdom
Now, I’ll suppose the player already knows how to become a lich, and has already transformed into one.
How should he look like exactly?
Well, we all know that liches are undead, and so looking like a decayed body or a skeleton seems to be more appropriate.
However, there is a specific lich that doesn’t apply to these rules.
I’m talking about Mannimarco. He became a lich thousands of years ago right? Rumored to be the first lich ever. But as you can see in the game, he has no decayed body or skeleton, is just a fancy altmer.
My first thought is that he uses some conceal magic to hide his true form.
Regardless, that’s not my main point, I want to know your opinions about which method should be more gameplay immersive and lore-friendly:

• Making him instantly decayed (would look like the Oblivion liches)
  
• Making this a slow process. So initially he appears human, and as days goes on, he will start to decay and eventually become like Oblivion liches
  
• Or he could just remain the same forever.

I favor the second, but I’ll consider your suggestions as long as they are given a strong reason to support it.

And lastly a final idea of mine.
I know that full liches in Elder Scrolls lore (at least in oblivion) don’t have any Phylactery associated with it, so they can be killed directly. With this in mind, I don’t intend to strictly make a lich depending on an object to die (it would give immortality though).
However I was thinking to add that as an option. Basically when a player is already a lich, you may get the knowledge on how to split your soul and store it into an object, so if you die in battle, you get the chance to revive (but to keep things balanced, the object is destroyed, otherwise you could just keep dying and dying and you would be revived).
What do you think of this to further increase the immersiveness of the mod?

Sorry for the enormous post, although I had a few more things I would like to include, I decided not to, the post could get really really long.

Anyway, thanks for reading all this, I hoping you can share some of your thoughts, and if you think you know something that could be useful, be sure to add it up, you never know if it will be helpful.

damn nice post. You'll have to get a lore buff in here to answer these questions. Try Hellmouth. If I remember correctly he's big on the Necromancy stuff.

As I've said over at TIL, you're not likely to find any information on this. Its just not a developed field of lore.

Just because the mighty Chaos God Nurgle, to whom I serve alongside Khorne, has the power to bring his followers back from the dead, doesn't automatically make me a necromancer...Oh, it wasn't about that. *Ahem* Well, I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, Wizzy.


The Path of Transcendence is the only piece of information detailing a process of becoming a lich. To note, there is evidence that there could be other ways to obtain this state, as seen twice in Morrowind (Barilzar and Aesliip). Not too surprising as it is a big taboo to become a lich, even among necromancers, so no one is really going out of their way to show the world their findings.


Lets put some notes of what we do know:
1) It involves separating your soul from your body and placing it in a temporary shell. This is likely to have it so the body "dies", but the spirit can come back to it without being sent to the Dreamsleeve (don't ask what this is, just think of it as where spirits go when they die).
2) For the body to be immortal, it has to be...how should I say...zombified? It needs to decay, shrivel up, or something. Either way, it turns into a decayed corpse. Reason for this is so that the body is already dead, making the user effectively immortal (though stinky and dead looking)
3) When the process of lichification is complete, the temporary shell is discarded, and the soul returns to the body of the lich.
4) The soul of the person in his/her lich body will not be rejected by the lichified body, and still retain their personality and knowledge.


For point 1, I assume to make more servants. However, this guy was going absolutely balls to the walls crazy, so the idea of just finding already dead people probably didn't cross his mind.

For point 2.... :shrug: . I will say I find this step largely unneeded, as Aesliip was able to do this alone, and didn't like the Draugr (nord zombies with a huge bloodlust). It is possible he could have grave robbed or took the dead, but he loved the Skaal too much. But there's always some berserkers he could have used, but the draugr may have too much bloodlust to control.

Point 3, now this is something I can deduce easily. The week-long ritual is most likely the part where practitioner transfers his/her soul into the temporary shell (Sands of Resolve in this case), has his/her body go through lichification, and at the end transfers his/her soul back into the lich body and becomes immortal.



Let me tell you of the story of Aesliip. He was a nord necromancer in the lands known as Solstheim, a tundra north of Vvardenfell, and was an ex-Skaal (nord nature worshipers of Solstheim). He was put into exile by the Skaal for becoming a necromancer, but harbored no hatred towards his ex-kin. During his years of isolation, hidden under a lake, he found there were powerful daedra waiting to pop out and kill everyone. He tried to warn his old brothers and sisters, but they ignored him. Saddened, he resolved himself to prevent complete disaster by sealing the daedra using his powerful magical ability. However, he grew old and knew one day he would die and the daedra would be released. His only option was to become a lich. He did so, alone, and continued to remain in the cave under the lake forever sealing the daedra till someone powerful enough could come to eliminate them.

Here I believe that only process 3 in the Path of Transcendence was performed. However, I will stress that only powerful mages can accomplish this.

And then we have Barilzar, another lich in Morrowind, this time in Mournhold. With this guy, he was a very powerful mage in life, who created a ring that is said to have the ability to open gates to Oblivion and allow a user to teleport anywhere. He also found this ring to be too dangerous for mortals to have. For better understanding, here is what he said,

Either he was cursed, or willingly lichified himself in order to make sure that the band never falls into the hands of anyone else. Personally, I believe the latter. With this guy, he had access to a large number of undead, so PoT 2 and 3 are likely. Of what these tasks are, still no clue, but I find it largely inconsequential. Maybe they're there to help process the body and act as guards.


Here are some pictures of liches throughout the games:
http://images.uesp.net//1/11/OBCreature-Lich.jpg
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TR-creature-Lich.jpg
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TR-creature-Barilzar.jpg
http://images.uesp.net//6/64/BM-Creature-LordAesliip.jpg
http://images.uesp.net//c/c4/DaggerfallAncientLich.gif
http://images.uesp.net//0/01/DaggerfallLich.gif
http://images.uesp.net//1/1b/ArenaLich.gif

As for what you should do, do whatever you feel bets suits you. Just remember that liches are spellcasters, who are very powerful already, trying to obtain a way to immortality for various reasons (study, protection, power, etc), because death is VERY inconvenient.



To be honest, I'm not really convinced that was really Mannimarco. http://gamall-ida.com/f/files/realmannimarco_190.jpg, if he were still around. However, this what what http://www.scharesoft.de/joomla/almanach/images/d/d4/Mannimarco_Daggerfall.jpg. Nowadays, http://www.astrosurf.com/sweiller/MosaFullMoons.jpg as this was a ending to Daggerfall, and there is now the Reverent Moon that eclipses Arkay.


Go for #2


To tell you the truth, the purpose of lichdom doesn't seem to be in order to gain instant gratification of because a super powerful undead mage, as many liches are already super powerful living mages in the first place, but it's a way to be immortal, as I mentioned earlier. However, for the sake of the mod, I'd say this:
reduce health and strength, you're undead.
Increase magicka and willpower, as you are more of a being running on magicka than anything
Increase magical skills
Add unique spells
Kill personality, and add a very powerful spell that makes you look alive, as no one is really going to let a lich inside the city walls, let alone continue to exist. Even Mannimarco lived in some hidden crypt.
No need for said object to house half your soul, as that's not going to complete the process, plus there are known bad side effects from cutting up your soul. Instead, how about a spell that binds the lich to a location, that is castable once a month, so that when they die, they'll be teleported back to that spot (like in SI)

But this is your mod, you do what you feel would add to the experience of becoming a lich. Just be aware the people, in-lore, WILL attack a lich on the spot. Only a very few would ever approach one, as it is a taboo to become one, not to mention a giant middle finger to Arkay and his followers. Namira would also hate you too. Possibly Peryite, but he's too unknown to judge. Hope this helps.

I always thought he had restored his appearance OR... he took on a new body to replace his old, smelly, one.

EDIT: Though, It was weird how easily beaten he was. Then again, Vivec was pretty easy to kill also.

I found Vivec hard...his shock spell was able to put a nice dent to my health. But with Mannimarco we saw in Oblivion, it could have been a version of him that was split from the Warp of the West. But, I'm just going to say it was an impostor till proven otherwise. Think about it, which would conjure more dread if you were a MG member, Mannimarco or randomaltmer#3984?

Plus, Mannimarco never attacked the Mages Guidl before, it was the Mages Guild that attacked him first (or more accurately, Galerion when he left it). Sure, he was amoral, a bit power hungry, and didn't really care about everyone else's finger waving for his practice during the time when he was a Psijjic, but he really only cared about one thing, screwing over Arkay.

He did get his gang of toughs to whack the guild's staff makers, so he wasn't entirely peaceful. It was most likely a response to Traven's ban, though.

Also, I underrated Vivec a bit there. He was pretty tough, but I still killed him on my first try. It wasn't like other games where it takes me upwards of 100 deaths against a boss before I can fathom killing them.

Is 3984 significant to you?

It's the number of accidental deaths to fellow cultists. None of it my fault... >.>

I'm privy to the "split Mannimarco" idea. There were...7 endings to Daggerfall? That means there could have been 6 "regular" (whatever regular means in TES) Mannimarco's still running about, and, of course, 1 Mannimarco that ascended to MOON KING status as his own moon that periodically gives Arkay's law the bird. That would definitely explain the red moon that occurs that allows the trapping of human souls.

I just can't imagine Mannimarco as the puny little nitwit we saw in Oblivion. Then again, with all the other mistakes Oblivion made, I wouldn't doubt it. :shakehead:

Well he's not really a lich anymore right? He is a god isn't he? Gods can appear in whatever form they want right? Or maybe he has mastered the inner workings of the body to point that he can use dead flesh to make his body appear alive/normal.

He's a god, in that he now eclipses Arkay every so often. Perhaps that was an avatar, but I'd like to believe there are 7 Mannimarcos, the 6 denied divinity and the 1 who is now the moon that eclipses Arkay.

"but he really only cared about one thing, screwing over Arkay." Well that and power

"But with Mannimarco we saw in Oblivion, it could have been a version of him that was split from the Warp of the West." I often think of the Mannimarco we saw in Oblivion as an avatar. It would make sense since the Gods can't use their full power within mundus, or is it just on Nirn? No matter point being it would make sense for him to be a lot weaker on Nirn than he otherwise would be in Obilivion, or wherever it is his heavenly body resides.

Plausible theory, but if its true then wouldn't everyone involved in the Dragon break also have copies of the themselves walking around?

With the kingdoms and the Blades, everyone else got smashed, and their Numidiums canceled each other out. Mannimarco used it to ascend into godhood, so his went boom after that. There's the Underking, who was allowed his death, and his went boom afterwards. The PC's stepped on him and went boom or something.

And like I said, Mannimarco really only cared about flipping Arkay the finger. He didn't really 't care about everyone else, just his goals (shooting Arkay the bird while smoking) and everyone else is a mean to obtain that end. Anything else is just Mages Guild propaganda.

Yah, this makes a lot of sense, but to people like me, it's kind of frutrating.
I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would like to play the evil mage on oblivion, and there isn't many mods that do so in a good way.
One mod for instance is the one called Modular Oblivion Enhanced.
It makes posssible to become a lich. When I saw this, I went over to test it out, started a new character with the main goal to become a lich. Spent more than 80 hours playing with this character.
When I get to lich, I was way to overpowered. I instantly got all my magical skills to master, got more than 1000 magicka, and could easily boost it up with powerful magical spells. Ok basically I was a god, but there was nobody enough challenging for me, so I quit on it.



You gave me good ideas about this.
The process of lichdom is a slowly one, so it would take several days to become one, and the character could actually start to decay over the days of his transformation until he becomes completely dead.
I was thinking about during the process you would get some power boosts, but also some moments of weaknesses, not helpful when on combat.
Also since you have to carry the shell with you it should be dangerous as it could break during combat. It may be a gameplay breaking idea, but it's only during the transformation. People should care more about their characters lol



The third step makes some sense, the way you've described it, but still if that week-long ritual was the actual lich transformation, would he still write on the book?
Also how would one go about building the Sands of Resolve?
Maybe the Sands of Resolve was something specific to this specific lich, but one thing is true, a container to hold the soul is necessary, and there must be a way to do it.
In the mod I described above, the way to construct the hourglass that contained the soul was a bit weird.
You had to acquire lots of items, not evil related, which doesn't make sense with the "evil acts", then you make a magical scroll that will be used to enchant a normal hourglass and transfer your soul to it.




So are you suggesting that I could do the lichdom process in several ways? So it would be up to the player to discover one of them.

Another of my main points for the mod is to overhaul the magic system making it possible for the player to discover new magics.
Like, mannimarco achieved a state of power that not anyone could. He, as I presume, was the creator of the magical power to enthrall humans. Why shouldn't the player be able to discover powers and magics as well?
Of course I still keep the balanced game in mind, I'm not fan of over powered gameplay.


I really wasn't aware of this, but now makes sense with some of dialogues of necromancers during the MG main quest.



My initially idea for the liches powers, was to also be a gradual process, as you become older the more powerful you become (pretty much like vampires should). So once the human became a lich he would surelly get a good boost of power, but to become really super powerful, it should be a very long way.
And yes, since the body is dead, he must rely on his magical powers to support his health, so a decrease in endurance and strength are sure to follow.
For the poweful spell that make you look alive, I was thinking about doing that or a spell that steal a person's life force, rejuvenating (I probably just invented this word) you and making the target like a zombie, pretty much a lifeforce transference. It would obviously be temporary, you would start to decay over again.



I like this teleport idea.
But still when I mention the split of the soul I already had in mind the dangers of doing it.
It was an idea to at least add some gameplay variety, and both the teleport and the soul split ideas could be added, the player is the one who have to discover them.


So are you suggesting that I could put some restrictions on doing namira or/and peryite daedric quests once you become a lich? yah that adds a lot of realism.


I got three more questions by the way, hope you don't mind:
- What about stealing people's souls to improve in power? it's pretty much what mannimarco did all the time, in oblivion lore at least.
- Should liches be affected by entering chapels and holy places? it's well known that undead are the very opposite of holy, but a lich is a living soul inside a dead body, he is not the same as the other undead variants, like zombies and skeletons who are powered by magic I believe.
- In oblivion there are two lich variants, the nether lich and the lich, the nether lich is known to be weaker than the lich, so what does this means? that a nether lich is a 'younger' lich than the other?

Finally thanks a lot for answering all my questions.
And to everybody else that comented on this topic, I also thank you, because started to talk about things I wasn't aware of until now.

Thanks a lot,
Cheerz

Eight Mannimarcos, or so the legend goes, but we'll never know.

I like the idea of two. That is, the King is seperated from the God, and Mannimarco's plot is now to raise himself from the tomb, to be one again. This is found in lore:
The Jills of Aka-tosh have mended this numidition. Mannimarco remains as he was: the high priest of maggots.
There were eight, within the Warp.

Arkay's intent was righteous. That Arkay's Laws hide the horror of the soul recycle, rather than deliver mortal souls from this doom is degredation of the personality. The GoW awards consciousness, beyond the tomb. The rites of lichdom* are harrowing, true. You are torn from Arkay's sphere very quickly and consciously, after all.

*All undead are lichs. Walking corpses. The games distinguish undead for the sake of... order, I suppose. All rpgs do that.

Souls have value in terms of enchantments and as a trade good. A lich could, for example, gather up some souls to make a deal with Clavicus Vile, or just enchant stuff, or just experiment, etc.


Might be an interesting feature if you go into a Temple dedicated to Arkay, but the undead seem to be a wee bit on the common side in oblivion's chapels.


Considering that the nether lich is transparent and has a ghostly appearance, my own guess is that the nether Lich is a lich that has previously sustained grievous injury, and managed to survive as a ghost-like entity. Their weakness could be caused by the loss of their body or from the side effects of the method they used to escape death.

The "tasks" that need to be done probably involve readying your undead body for the return of your soul, and the preparing of the thingy (what the sands of resolve were.) To piss of the necromancer i always sunk the sands of resolve in the middle of the Niben.


Make liches have lowered strength (from muscle deteriation), increased health, fatigue and magicka (because they are held together by magic and all), lowered agility (rigor mortis), lower endurance (your a dead body), lower speed (floating is slow), and lower personality (because you are a pile of magical bones.) However, make Luck, intelligence, and Willpower be increased heavily.

why should luck be raised?

In my perspective, luck is the attraction of good things, so if you do good things you get good things.
The lich is the opposite of that

Luck isn't Karma. Luck is that killing arrow missing you. Luck is finding a powerful ring in the stomach of a common rat. Luck is blindly firing a fireball and it somehow hits a weak point and kills an enemy. Luck is not dying from a savage beating.

Also, a lich isn't always kick the puppy evil. As I have mentioned earlier, the reason why mages become mages in the first place is because death of natural causes is very inconvenient. Mannimarco wanted to shoot Arkay the bird, but he needed to wait a very long time before he found his ticket. Aesliip kept himself alive so that he can maintain the barrier preventing Solstheim from a daedric invasion. Barilzar was making sure he protects the Mazed Band from falling into anyone's hands, as that artifact is too dangerous to fall into mortal hands. The Telvanni use necromatic means to keep their lives extended very unnaturally, because they're very focused on research. And of course there are those who do it for power. The reasons vary, so don't let the petty Mages Guild's propaganda or the crap from the priests of Arkay cloud your perception with half truths and flat out lies.

(In Morrowind)

well, luck in OB seemed to have been more for loot than what was in MW, DF, and FO(1, 2, & 3)

lol yah, I still have an hard time being evil towards the mages guild, mainly because the best spells are there and if I turn against them, I may not get them.
But I understand your perspective, and actually makes a lot more sense.
So the lichdom state is an alternative of life, being it for the sake of power or to protect something.
Shouldn't the gained power of the lich state, eventually corrupt their minds? by the facts you gave me it seems they kept to the same goal forever, with the same sanity, but I don't know, humanity have always been corrupted by power, the more they have the worse.
Maybe being a lich means something different, they may keep their personality, but I still believe the lichdom transformation can cause damage on one's personality.
Maybe I'm just arguing against the facts or maybe the facts here stated are just a person-by-person basis, it may not happen to weak-minded individuals and they eventually succumb into madness.

sorry if I ask too many questions, but my interest for this topic is pretty huge

Well, if ya want to look at Luck at its finest and its intended use, let take a look at Yagrum Bagarn. By all account, this dude should be dead. He avoid becoming a skin of a god and still alive from having Corprus disease intact to him, not to mention that he is harboring in Divayth Fyr's crib. Oh, and he have like 100 on Luck.