Discussion: The cause of the disapperance of Masser and Secu : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon May 07, 2012 7:27 pm

The third empire of man had a space station, fought of Dagon every few years, et cetera. The Thalmor obviously isn't powerful enough to have destroyed Lorkhan Outright for two years, but could they have triggered a real disappearance? I see no reason to believe not. Considering that (1) the moons are an illusion to begin with, and (2) there's no real reason for a book in Skyrim to have all the details of the effects of the third most recent near-apocalyptic event, I see no reason to toss this aside as a fake.

So, what caused it? Well, let's consider what has changed since TES IV:

1) The Daedra seem to have become more limited in power. (Black Star, Clavicus's restrictions, Bal's Shrine being tainted, et cetera)
2) Alduin has returned
3) Crystal-Like-Law Fell
4) Someone was born with the soul of a dragon
5) The Thalmor rose to power in Alinor and Valenwood
6) Falenesti stopped moving
7) The moons temporarily disappeared

It seems to me that there has been a lot of heavenly upset recently. After crystal and green-sap (apparently) turned off, only Snow-Throat and the Khajiit (if they are a tower) stood entirely firm (walk-brass is still in siege mode, after all). The world was vulnerable. The elves were in a position to do something drastic. What they did, we cannot know, but one thing we do know is that when elves get ready to do drastic things, Shezzar likes to step in. The moons are Shezzar's body.

In my imaginings, some sort of epic space battle went down, and while neither of the principle sides profited greatly, other elements had a chance to slip through while the Lunar Lattice's guard was down. The Daedra overstepped, an un-advlterated et'Ada slipped through to become the soul of a mortal, and perhaps the whole process also sped up Alduin's return somehow. In the next few years, Lorkhan turned his fury towards the Daedra, pushing them back further than they had gone before, and the Thalmor got really pissed and redoubled their Lork/Shez/Shor/Talos hate.

You forgot Ada-Mantia.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:07 pm

You forgot Ada-Mantia.

That I did.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:17 am

A body disappeared from it's grave. My first thoughts:

Zombie Lorkhan
Vampire Lorkhan
Falanu Hlaalu

Emh. I got nothing.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:01 pm

A body disappeared from it's grave. My first thoughts:

Zombie Lorkhan

Mannimarco got ambitious?

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:43 am

It's not totally inconceivable that the Thalmor would be able to hide the moons with illusion. Consider the possibility that the Thalmor conceived of multiple groups of spellcasters that took turning performing circle magic, pooling their magicka to cast a spell that would hide the moons for even one day. If the Thalmor had 7 such groups, which is entirely possible, then perhaps they could've hidden the moons for two years.

Again, an out-there theory with no lore to back it up, but since there isn't any real lore on this, it's plausible at the very least, if not terribly exciting.

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:02 am

It's not totally inconceivable that the Thalmor would be able to hide the moons with illusion. Consider the possibility that the Thalmor conceived of multiple groups of spellcasters that took turning performing circle magic, pooling their magicka to cast a spell that would hide the moons for even one day. If the Thalmor had 7 such groups, which is entirely possible, then perhaps they could've hidden the moons for two years.

Again, an out-there theory with no lore to back it up, but since there isn't any real lore on this, it's plausible at the very least, if not terribly exciting.

You think the Thalmor using illusion magic to hide the moons from sight is terribly exciting? Considering the possibilities of what it could mean for the moons to disappear from the sky--Lorkhan actually going somewhere and doing something and being alive--I can't help but think that this Thalmor theory is the least exciting theory possible. But then, I'm one of those who would rather see more metaphysics than politics in TES games.

» Mon May 07, 2012 11:37 pm

Without mythical significance it's just not cool. :nope:

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:42 pm

Whatever the case may be, the Thalmor's primary interest in the moons is the political courtship of Elsweyr.

Think: Why would they want to bring back what is ostensibly the rotting corpse of (who is for them) the unclean-est of unclean spirits? To point and gloat? Not likely. Remember, they want to remove all traces and echos and rude whispers of the Space-God. I'm unable to square how that goal could possibly jive with having his bloated corpse befoul their night sky.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:00 am

(walk-brass is still in siege mode, after all)

Off-topic, but I'm fairly certain walk-brass is broken/turned off. Yes, I know the whole "siege lasted an hour, but its effects were felt from the Merethic to the Fifth era" bit, but when a big, stompy robot stomps the [censored] out of time and Alinor, it will undoubtedly create a ripple effect like a rock in a still pond*. Or imagine, perhaps, a cheesy 1950s movie, where the explosions of Nagasaki and Hiroshima send a few Japanese citizens into the ancient Japanese past and a few others into the Japanese cyberpunk future; the explosions were one-time events, but their effects spanned into the past and future.

*credit for this particular simile goes to whomever I stole it from.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:25 pm

You think the Thalmor using illusion magic to hide the moons from sight is terribly exciting? Considering the possibilities of what it could mean for the moons to disappear from the sky--Lorkhan actually going somewhere and doing something and being alive--I can't help but think that this Thalmor theory is the least exciting theory possible. But then, I'm one of those who would rather see more metaphysics than politics in TES games.

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying if it's not terribly exciting, it's at least plausible. Perhaps I should've worded it better.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:31 am

Keep in mind that :

4E 115 — The Elsweyr Confederacy becomes the two kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine, which the Aldmeri Dominion accepts as client states.

While this is 15 years after the void nights, I don't think the Khajit would be willing to seperate back into two kingdoms after managing to stay as a whole kingdom for nearly a century after they left the Empire. Seems to me more like civil war which continued for years, no doubt caused by the void nights and whatever maybe that caused. I believe that in MK's new work, it suggests Elsweyr is more connected to the moon than we think...maybe the void nights caused the province of Elsweyr (as we knew it) to disapear for those two years?

...I hope the next TES game is Elsweyr - I'd be happy with just one of the kingdoms, so we could go to some kind of moon colony. Or if it just explained the void nights (which wasn't just "Thalmor did it with there magical powahs")

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:50 am

It's not totally inconceivable that the Thalmor would be able to hide the moons with illusion. Consider the possibility that the Thalmor conceived of multiple groups of spellcasters that took turning performing circle magic, pooling their magicka to cast a spell that would hide the moons for even one day. If the Thalmor had 7 such groups, which is entirely possible, then perhaps they could've hidden the moons for two years.

Again, an out-there theory with no lore to back it up, but since there isn't any real lore on this, it's plausible at the very least, if not terribly exciting.

Not inconcievable no, not at all. I mean we had a giant stompy robot who gave time a royal shallalie up the rear if everytime it moved it's big toe, I just see any reason to believe that they were behind it. A massive illusion spell however, that captured the eyes of everyone on Tamriel seems like quite the feat as well.

You see, Lord Tidus, even a Saxhleel and a Dunmer can agree to someting :tongue:

Us agreeing isn't that amazing

I'd say we share similiar opinions on the whole Akatosh and Impeiral Propaganda thing as well.

» Mon May 07, 2012 3:33 pm

Keep in mind that :

4E 115 — The Elsweyr Confederacy becomes the two kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine, which the Aldmeri Dominion accepts as client states.

While this is 15 years after the void nights, I don't think the Khajit would be willing to seperate back into two kingdoms after managing to stay as a whole kingdom for nearly a century after they left the Empire. Seems to me more like civil war which continued for years, no doubt caused by the void nights and whatever maybe that caused. I believe that in MK's new work, it suggests Elsweyr is more connected to the moon than we think...maybe the void nights caused the province of Elsweyr (as we knew it) to disapear for those two years?

...I hope the next TES game is Elsweyr - I'd be happy with just one of the kingdoms, so we could go to some kind of moon colony. Or if it just explained the void nights (which wasn't just "Thalmor did it with there magical powahs")

The disbanding of the Confederacy of Elsweyr probably had something to do with declining stability in the society of the one nation. Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition says something to this effect in the last two paragraphs under History.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Sugar_and_Blood

Not inconcievable no, not at all. I mean we had a giant stompy robot who gave time a royal shallalie up the rear if everytime it moved it's big toe, I just see any reason to believe that they were behind it. A massive illusion spell however, that captured the eyes of everyone on Tamriel seems like quite the feat as well.

Indeed, much like the feat where the Psijic Mage that
[/spoiler] visited the Dovahkiin at the College of Winterhold stopped time so they could speak in private.[/spoiler]

If one Psijic Mage could do that, and the Psijic Order can hide their island, well... let's just hope the Thalmor don't develop an atom-splitting spell.

» Mon May 07, 2012 5:59 pm

The disbanding of the Confederacy of Elsweyr probably had something to do with declining stability in the society of the one nation. Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition says something to this effect in the last two paragraphs under History.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Sugar_and_Blood

Indeed, much like the feat where the Psijic Mage that
[/spoiler] visited the Dovahkiin at the College of Winterhold stopped time so they could speak in private.[/spoiler]

If one Psijic Mage could do that, and the Psijic Order can hide their island, well... let's just hope the Thalmor don't develop an atom-splitting spell.

Spoiler tags didn't work, thank God I just got past that quest :wink:

Making an island disapear and then making the decaying body of a God that orbits Nirn disapear arn't really in the same leauge to me. The Psjiics as well are an ancient order that predates the Thalmor and is composed of the most powerful wizards in all of Tamriel. The Thalmor don't match up to the Psijiics by a long shot.

» Mon May 07, 2012 9:42 pm

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying if it's not terribly exciting, it's at least plausible. Perhaps I should've worded it better.

Ah, I see now. Then yes, I agree. It's certainly a possibility, but it's terribly dull, and I hope that idea is thrown out in favor of something much more interesting.

» Tue May 08, 2012 2:36 am

There are other options other than removal or illusion. Perhaps the orbits of the moons were adjusted such that the moons never appeared in the visible sky, or were otherwise prevented from coming up over the horizon. Perhaps they were busy with something.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:10 am

What if through manipulation or galactic glitch both moons where stuck at "new phase" for the 2 years they where missing? (Making 2 years of Suthay births).

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:25 pm

You think the Thalmor using illusion magic to hide the moons from sight is terribly exciting? Considering the possibilities of what it could mean for the moons to disappear from the sky--Lorkhan actually going somewhere and doing something and being alive--I can't help but think that this Thalmor theory is the least exciting theory possible. But then, I'm one of those who would rather see more metaphysics than politics in TES games.

I agree. The Thalmor removing the moons is boring.

But I want to see more politics and metaphysics.

» Tue May 08, 2012 6:09 am

What if through manipulation or galactic glitch both moons where stuck at "new phase" for the 2 years they where missing? (Making 2 years of Suthay births).

You may be onto something...

» Tue May 08, 2012 3:46 am

I agree. The Thalmor removing the moons is boring.

But I want to see more politics and metaphysics.

I don't have a problem with the politics, so long as they don't take center stage. Civil war in Skyrim? That's cool. The Dragon God of Time returning from the past to eat the world along with his army of dragons? Yes, I'll take that as my main dish.

Additionally, politics backed by mythic ongoings is fun too. But often people either lean more toward attention being placed on the more metaphysical aspects of Tamriel or more toward the political aspects, and I lean toward the former.

» Mon May 07, 2012 4:50 pm

Let's attack this from the other direction suggested, that the Thalmor knew the moons would return and exploited that knowledge to appear to have something to do with it.

What could have happened to the moons such that the Thalmor, and only the Thalmor, would know how long they would be gone and when they would return?

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:26 am

Or Mysticism :laugh:

So what happened to the Khajit that were born during the void nights then ?

Mutated abominations?

If "no moons" has the same effect as Masser and Secunda being in their "new" state, all Khajiit would be born as Suthay.

» Mon May 07, 2012 10:26 pm

If the Khajiit are a stone and the moons are a tower, then isn't it possible that a civil war between the Khajiit or the death of the Mane (I believe he died during this time) caused the moons to dissapear? And only when peace was made again and a new mane was installed did peace return and with that the moons?

That's my theory at least, why in heavens name they would thank the Altmer for returning the moons then is beyond me, but still.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:42 am

I still think this "Khajiit is a Tower" thing stretches too far past TES craziness into actual craziness.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:16 am

I still think this "Khajiit is a Tower" thing stretches too far past TES craziness into actual craziness.

Pretty much. Isn't the main thing about Towers is that they are taller than they are wide, as they are all echoes of Ada-Mantia, a really tall structure? A species isn't a tall monolithic structure.