Before the coming of The Nerevarine, Morrowind was in peace, everyone and everything was safe, everyone was going his own way, The Great Houses we're getting along together, The Tribunal were good Gods they've always protected Morrowind and they even defeated The Daedric Invasion of Morrowind, Red Mountain didn't erupt, everything was going along seamlessly, until The Nerevarine came along and made sure to ruin the peacful atmosphere and living life of Vvardenfell and the rest of Morrowind, by killing The Tribunal and making Baar Du (The Ministry of Truth) fall into Vivec City and dooming the whole of Vvardenfell and the rest of Morrowind, and the falling of Baar Du made the Red Mountain erupt and because of that Morrowind's forest and vegetation was gone

My point is, if The Nerevarine and Azura didn't come along, Morrowind would've been fine and peaceful until this day, but no, Azura and The Nerevarine had to intervene and make sure to ruin Morrowind

Discuss

No, Dagoth Ur would have spread from Red Mountain as the power of the Tribunal finally collapsed, with Akulakhan leading his armies, conquered Tamriel and subjected the world to the Corprus, linking everything into a stagnant half-dream or slavery to his perverse view of the universe.

Yes, the Red Year was a direct result of the Nerevarine's actions, but the alternative was way, WAY worse.

Dagoth Ur, his 6th house, the corprus, and the blight, were also part of that legacy.
It seems to me he and Heramaeus Mora were preparing for war, using Dagoth Ur, while the Heart of Lorkan continued to exist.

The Ascended Sleepers are a dead giveaway that Heramaeus was involved after seeing them in his realm of Apocrypha in Skyrim.

Almalexia was rather insane by the time she is met in Tribunal, and had murdered Sotha Sil.

Removing them was a good thing.

Why are we blaming the Nerevarine and Azura for Vivec being a jerkwad?

Except we don't see them in Apocrypha, unless you asume that everything that has a tentacle must be somehow tied to Herma Mora which is rather silly.

This essentially . Even if we asume that Nerevar was aware that his action will result in droping of lie rock ( which he migh not realized) the other option would result in Dagoth Ur lead destruction on the scale beyond Morrowind, beyond Tamriel , possible beyond Mundus. Besides while it might sound horrifing red year was neccesary catalyst for a change in Dunmer culture.

Everyone and everything was safe? I guess the Blight storms infecting creatures and mer is some strange new definition of "safe" that I'm not familiar with then.

The Houses were getting along? Hlaalu cheating Redoran for the Caldera mines, killing a house member to intercept letters and impersonating him to pass along false information, strong-arming merchants into taking inferior goods instead of trading with Redoran, and Telvanni setting up illegal colonies and kidnapping other House members, and Redoran itself having issues with kidnapping, bribery, and general "not living up to House Redoran standards" issues must be another new definition of "getting along" that I'm not familiar with.

The Tribunal was using all the power they had simply to maintain the Ghostfence. Because of Dagoth Ur, they could no longer make their annual pilgrimage to Red Mountain to renew their ties to the Heart. They were growing weaker. This caused Almalexia to go insane and look for ways to increase her power again. This had nothing to do with the Nerevarine.

I'm also not quite sure what you mean about the Nerevarine killed the Tribunal. I don't care how your game played out in other ways, but the Nerevarine DOES NOT KILL Sotha Sil. Almalexia does. He's dead before you ever make it to the Clockwork City. She's insane, and had her plans to consolidate her power and take over before the Nerevarine showed up. Your being there simply made it easier. The Nerevarine does kill Almalexia in self defense, after she attacks and attempts to kill them.

As far as that goes, not everyone killed Vivec. Listen to the rumors, and you find out that he was taken away by dremora during the Crisis. Or maybe not, and he was killed by the Nerevarine. Nothing is certain about that. The only sure fact is, he's gone.

Ignoring the aggressive House land grab of Vvardenfell, the invasive Imperial policies, and the shadow wars between the Thieves Guild and the Camora Tong, and the Twin Lamps abolitionist movement.

Uriel Septim's way.

No they weren't.

Sotha Sil hadn't been seen in centuries, Vivec sole focus was upon the Ghostgate, and Almalexia was lost in the adoration of the people of Mournhold, clinging desperately to her illusion of godhood as her power waned.

Yes, Dagoth Ur's plans were coalescing perfectly.

All according to Azura's plan.

Implying the false gods did not deserve to die. Sotha Sil escaped his fate thanks to Almalexia's insanity.

No, I'm pretty sure that one's on Vivec - who didn't actually slow down Baar Dau, but simply froze it in place and never bothered to mention the fact with his powers waning that eventually it would resume its descent.

Yeah. All of Tamriel would have been peaceful if the Nerevarine had never come along. That way the Oblivion Crisis could distract Vivec, causing the Ghostgate to collapse and Dagoth Ur and his Sixth House could sweep out of Red Mountain and spread corpus throughout the land during the Stormcrown Interregnum.

The Ascended Sleepers =/= Lurkers. They both draw from Lovecraftian source material, but Dagoth Ur's plans have squat to do with Mora's sphere.

As others said, the Nerevarine had no choice. It was either act and MAYBE cause a disaster in the future, or don't act and doom all of Tamriel to Dagoth Ur's whims. If you want to blame anyone, blame Dagoth Ur for starting this crap in the first place.

You're right but not for the reasons you have listed.

The Nerevarine is Azurah's final petty vengeance on the Dunmer for the Tribunal's follies.

She hand crafted a hero that could have saved them from the fall of the Ministry - but the Nerevarine was never made to save them. He was an agent of her vengeance against Vivec, Sotha Sil, Almalexia, and Dagoth Ur.

"I guess the Blight storms infecting creatures and mer is some strange new definition of "safe" that I'm not familiar with then"

They were in certain places, and they had a cure

" killing a house member to intercept letters and impersonating him to pass along false information"

The Nerevarine actually was the impersonator in that quest

"strong-arming merchants into taking inferior goods instead of trading with Redoran, and Telvanni setting up illegal colonies and kidnapping other House members, and Redoran itself having issues with kidnapping, bribery, and general "not living up to House Redoran standards""

These could've easily been resolved between The Great Houses in a peaceful manner or doing treaties or any other peaceful option

Well, the "cure" only worked on the Nerevarine. All of the other patients Fyr experimented on up and croaked.

"Ignoring the aggressive House land grab of Vvardenfell, the invasive Imperial policies, and the shadow wars between the Thieves Guild and the Camora Tong, and the Twin Lamps abolitionist movement."

These are minor conflicts that could've been easily resolved using a more peaceful action

"Uriel Septim's way."

His was or not, they were okay and safe

"No they weren't."

There aren't wars between them, atleast not public ones, and all of the assassinations had no evidence that would point to the other Houses' involvement, it could've easily been the doing of anyone else

"Sotha Sil hadn't been seen in centuries, Vivec sole focus was upon the Ghostgate, and Almalexia was lost in the adoration of the people of Mournhold, clinging desperately to her illusion of godhood as her power waned."

Even when their powers were waning, they were still protecting Morrowind, showing how much of good Gods they actually are, and what are you saying about ALmalexia being lost in her people's adoration? She actually was the one that protected Morrowind from the Daedric invasion when the gates opened in Mournhold

"Yes, Dagoth Ur's plans were coalescing perfectly."

No, he was working in the mountain, but he wasn't the one protecting it from eruption

"All according to Azura's plan."

Like I've said, Azura was helping in the destruction of Morrowind too, by sending The Nerevarine to kill The Tribunal

"Implying the false gods did not deserve to die. Sotha Sil escaped his fate thanks to Almalexia's insanity."

"false gods" they weren't false until The Nerevarine came to kill them, the were very real according to the people of Vvardenfell and The Tribunal's temple

They did not deserve to die, they helped Morrowind in her worst times, something The Nerevarin and Azura did not do

"No, I'm pretty sure that one's on Vivec - who didn't actually slow down Baar Dau, but simply froze it in place and never bothered to mention the fact with his powers waning that eventually it would resume its descent."

He froze because he never thought there was a time that someone would easily come and kill him, his powers kept it off the ground and it was a good idea at the time, until The Nerevarine killed him

"Yeah. All of Tamriel would have been peaceful if the Nerevarine had never come along. That way the Oblivion Crisis could distract Vivec, causing the Ghostgate to collapse and Dagoth Ur and his Sixth House could sweep out of Red Mountain and spread corpus throughout the land during the Stormcrown Interregnum."

Why would it distract Vivec? Their were other God that would've easily come to aid and help them, there were other champions that would've attacked the invading daedra, and Almalexia will probably the one going to help, because she closed the Oblivions' gates the opened in Mournhold and she killed the invading daedra single handedly

I thought you were talking about the blight not the corprus?

The blight had a cure, that's why most travelers that go through the blight storms carry those potions

Even if we ignore the Corpus issue for a moment, cures are not readily available for everyone. Just because we the PC can stock up on a ton of potions and spells does not mean combating the disease is viable for everyone else. The vast majority of people will suffer and most likely die if they were to contract blight diseases. People carrying such potions around are the exception, not the rule.

I get the impression that you've never actually played Morrowind.

Morrowind is the only province off the top of my head that had legal, sanctioned assassins. The Morag Tong were effectively kept in business offing various factors and members of the Great Houses.

Correction - Vivec was protecting Morrowind. Sotha Sil, as I said, vanished centuries ago (to his Clockwork City beneath Mournhold) and as for Almalexia...

Almalexia is the epitome of a certain Buckcherry song. For crying out loud, she murdered her husband for a chance at power. She's never been stable or a saint. She just believes herself to be.

They were false gods who were granted their divinity through profane rituals conducted with the Heart of Lorkhan. Once Dagoth Ur manifested, they could no longer "bathe" in the power of the Heart and thus began their slow decline. Conjurers and tricksters, egomaniacs and liars. They were never gods.

Azura...Azura's the one who helped the Chimer after their exodus from Alinor. And how do they repay her? By bending their knee to empowered mortals. The Nerevarine - the spirit of Nerevar. He who, according to legend, ordered the tools destroyed and the Heart buried...slain by his trusted advisers, friends, and family merely for power.

Nowhere is it established the Nerevarine killed Vivec. According to legend, Vivec was ambushed and spirited away by Dremora during the Oblivion Crisis. Or perhaps Nerevar did slice that little sycophant's throat. No one knows...because the truth is, no one had actually seen Vivec in years.

Again - you've never actually played Morrowind, have you?

Their powers were all but extinguished. Sotha Sil fled the world entirely, and Almalexia never left her temple in Mournhold. Vivec alone stood sentinel against Dagoth Ur, but the entirety of his energies were bent to maintaining the Ghostfence...and even that was being augmented by the willing sacrifice of hundreds of Dunmer dead. And by the time of Morrowind...the Ghostfence was starting to fail. Corpus and Blighted creatures were already coming over the walls and terrorizing the ashlands. Their powers were waning, nearly gone.

They were used up. Yes, in the Second Era Almalexia had the strength to fight off Molag Bal's invasion. And by the ending of the Third era, she'd been reduced to engaging the reincarnation of her murdered husband in single combat in some mad scheme to reclaim her godhood...at which point she was going to *murder Vivec*, so that Morrowind only worshiped one god. Her.

Uh...the Nerevarine never killed Vivec, at least not officially. The destruction of Red Year can be placed solely on Vivec's shoulders.

Vivec himself writes in his 36 Lessons:

When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

Vivec smiled and told the Hortator that he had become a Minister of Truth.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

According to lore, Vivec planned to dissappear anyway, which is why he informed the temple administration, and prepared them for the time that we would leave. During all that time, why did Vivec not lower the Ministry of Truth, destoy it etc? He didn't know it was going to happen, he didn't care or he couldn't stop it. Either way, not the Nerevarine's fault.

Yes, there were bad consequences of the Nerevarine finishing off Dagoth Ur, and destroying the heart. In a strange way, the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur, at least acted as things to protect Tamriel from daedric invasions. The Ministry Of Truth collapsing also wasn't a good thing obviously. Not to mention it severely weakened the Dumner people, to have their most powerful individuals who ever lived amongst them, be done away with. Not on an individual level but on a collective level.

And that wonderfully fascinating place that is Vvardenfell is gone now, it was once a place that was part mushroom forest, part ash desert, more ash desert than mushroom forest, but it still had quite a bit of life of a type, a fascinating place, even if the alit, and kagouti may be frightening creatures. It also inadvertently lead to the Imperial legion having a stronger total presence all over Tamriel... I have ambivalent feelings about the Imperial Legion, I like them more than the Stormcloaks but I don't like or trust them, and I don't consider the Imperial Legion to be benign or good.

On the upside it seems the Imperial Legion is weakened by the events of Skyrim alongside the Stormcloaks, although... Unfortunately it also seems the Thalmor are rising as a consequences. That all said... There were upsides to Dagoth Ur being stopped as well.

In time, Dagoth Ur would have gone from being a defender of Vvardenfell to eventually becoming a conqueror of the rest of Tamriel, cause keep in mind... Dagoth Ur's mind isn't... Sound anymore. Yes I consider Dagoth Ur in some ways to be defending Morrowind, from like the Imperial Legion and stuff... Although spreading around corprus disease, and brainwashing people wasn't... Well lets just say it isn't like something Superman would do in similar circumstances, morally speaking.

Either way Morrowind gets destroyed, and the whole Oblivion crisis occurs, or eventually Dagoth Ur spreads corprus disease all over the world. I do think the whole plot of Morrowind is more morally gray than it may come across to some. Do I think things would be better off if the whole world become Corprus land? Do I think Morrowind a few centuries ahead with lots more Corprus would be a good place? No.

Was stopping Dagoth Ur worth it? Maybe, it probably was worth preventing him from taking over the world and spreading corprus everywhere... But it did come at a huge price.

Hypothetically speaking I think the best solution would have been for someone to overthrow Dagoth Ur, take the power of the heart, drive the Imperial Legion from Morrowind, and also end Morrowind's traditions of slavery. Morally speaking I think that would've been the best option if it hypothetically existed. But that isn't an option for the Nerevarine, perhaps partially because it would make the story seem too black-and-white, lacking the moral shades of gray. I think a major part of Morrowind's plot, is it's often times hard to tell what the right thing to do is, and that's a part of what makes it so fascinating.

No I am not joining the Sixth House if Dagoth Ur hypothetically manifests into this world from a parallel universe, and I don't think things would've been better off if the Nerevarine never returned... But there were dire consequences obviously. It's not this simplistic absolute evil vs absolute good feel good kind of story line.

... And yes, there were, some bad consequences, very very bad consequences that unfortunately happened as a result of the Nerevarine returning.

The Heart drives people mad. Nerevar was right in wanting the Tools destroyed and the Heart buried. There are some forces you do not meddle with.

Well Ascended Sleepers do bare a striking resemblance to the Seekers we see in Dragonborn.

And who else within Apocrypha would be called "Seekers" other than those people who came there seeking knowledge?

It should also be noted that the concave head of the Ash Zombie exists because their 'head bursts from enlightenment'.

-http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/image/101687910088

There probably isn't a direct connection between Sleepers and Seekers, but there does seem to be some sort of link.

First five points were legitimate. Although I don't really view the Great Houses as evil factions that needed to be stopped, I think they were neutral morally... With the exception perhaps, of House Telvanni because of it's slavery. As for the Commona Tong and slavery, I think the Nerevarine would be capable of single handedly putting a stop to both the Commona tong and slavery, I think the Nerevarine is powerful enough to not require assistance in such a goal.

I believe the Nerevarine could've killed every single member of the Commona Tong, and kill every slaver in Morrowind, without any outside assistance- thus the rock crashing into Vivec is unnecessary, although afaik that was never a cannon part of the storyline (as in the Nerevarine single handedly stopping the Commona Tong and slavery). As for Almalexia, a future underneath Almalexia's will admittedly, would not be a pleasant thing.

Or in short, Nerevarine freeing the slaves of Morrowind, and battling the Commona Tong, is a lot less morally ambigious, than the Nerevarine's confrontation with Dagoth Ur.

Hmm, so... That explains the collapse partially. Well Vivec doesn't seem to be so morally upstanding under that light. I suppose the ending of the worship of Vivec was partially the Nerevarine's fault, so in a way if you really want to stretch things, you could say that the Nerevarine played a role in encouraging Vivec to commit mass murder. But then again, with Dagoth Ur's corprus beasts and all that... The Nerevarine was between a rock and a hard place. And it would seem... That there was nothing the Nerevarine could've done to prevent that rock from falling.

And believe me, it really does sound like quite the double bind. If someone told me, I either have to do A which will make a giant rock crash into Vivec, or refrain from doing A which will eventually cause B corprus beasts to overrun all of Tamriel... Well that'd be a tough decision. Admittedly though, I'd probably be quite displeased to see an entire city with many many people in it, worshiping an individual who betrayed and brutally murdered me a long time ago.

I certainly don't think the Nerevarine is evil, but I don't think the Nerevarine is necessarily good either. I think the Nerevarine was someone, forced to make very difficult decisions.

Perhaps the rock would've eventually fallen anyways, even if the Nerevarine did nothing for all I know... I wonder how long Vivec could've kept people worshiping him for. Perhaps the worship would've eventually failed due to Dagoth Ur, and it would eventually collapse, just a lot later?

Once again, people mistake apoptosis for necrosis. The fall of Baar Dau was necessary. The after effects were to prepare Morrowind for the new era. Currently, Morrowind is doing fine, apart from worshiping false gods in the Reclamations there is not much wrong with it. They are free from the Empire, even.

He's a god of Death who deliberately hung his peoples doom over their heads and smiled as they turned it into a administration building.

Make no mistake about it. Vivec is just as looney as the rest of them. It's just he's Charles Manson to Almalexia's John Hinckley Jr.

You know... That actually makes perfect sense. With Vivec's whole... Cult of personality thing he's got going on (Almalexia has that going on too, but to a much lesser extent). He is by far the most charismatic, and he is probably able to use deception in many many cases, where Almalexia would have to use physical might, or Sotha Sil would have to use magic, or Dagoth Ur would have to use... Less subtle tactics, involving blight diseases, corprus, dream invasions, and ash statues in the case of Dagoth.