Ah, another rant topic, how lovely!

Well...I'm fairly disappointed at a severe lack of filth and poverty in this game. Bravil only truly becomes a cesspool after it's attacked by the Blood and Mud and Better Cities crew (either both or one independently). Leyawiin seemed too clean, as well, until it gets hit by BC. There are no shanty towns, or suchlike in the world. Poverty only seems to affect the beggars, and I personally think that's just what they want you to think.

In searching for mods that try to fix this, you can grab Better Cities, which is brilliant. I love BC, and I run Blood and Mud alongside it so Bravil's really slummy now. Sad thing is, that's about as far as it goes in terms of mods. The vast majority of house mods lavish the player in rich silks, wines and foods. As if money and riches are so common as to be available to those that wish to walk into a house and sleep there.

Does anyone remember a book series added by (I think) Better Cities, a set called "Rat the Thief"? It seems to me that the introductory of it describes the Imperial City, if it actually had a taint of realism to the waterfront. Crowded, dirty, crime infested and a gag-inducer to those with riches...ah...home. Remember that the heroine lives in a hovel built between two other houses, that can't be more than teen feet wide? Where are these things?

I'm not posting requests, but I just want to draw this to the attention of everyone. It's simply scary to me to think that almost all house and town mods out there tend to lend towards forcing the player into a rich setting. What about the low-lifes? Scum and thieves, muggers, beggars, and general filth?


Cyrodiil must have a really good economy - the only "dirty" thing in the original game are the beggars. Unless you count ruins, which are also devastatingly clean. Think of this as a rallying cry, I suppose. I would kind of like to see more "filth" mods out there, and I don't mean advlt rated ones.

You should be quite happy when Meek gets done with Pell's Gate then. Just what you're looking for

If that's the case, she can rest assured that I'll have a copy, and I'll bring all of my dirty blankets and clothes. xD

That book series is by Nernie, and is part of her mod "MTCThieves Grotto". I know some of her mods are also included with Better Cities (is "Thieves Grotto" now included as well? I run an older Better Cities) but I thought I'd clarify, since I'm an admirer of her mods.

Nernie's mods add a lot of that very character you describe. I use them all and I love them all.

I dunno... I think vanilla looks quite drab. I don't mean the lack of thrown trash on the streets, but the walls - they're dirty. There are cracks in the plaster everywhere. The wood that makes the houses in most places also looks cracked and weathered. I agree that Better Cities Bravil makes it look like more like the cesspool it's supposed to be, but I don't have many problems with vanilla Bravil Or any of the other cities, really.

I used Thieves Grotto as well, but was under the impression it was merged with BC, though I can't find the actual grotto. Oddly, I think that some of the shops and houses in Bravil are her houses, sans grotto and more merged into the town.

Well, I agree, although Better Cities does a good job, especially with Bravil (even without Blood and Mud).

That is why I'm really looking forward to Shezrie's Pells Gate, which looks as though it will turn Pells Gate into a real rat warren. There's no WIP thread for Pell's Gate, but Shezrie posts here under the name Meek.

Also, check out Iliana's Elseweyr expansion. The inner area of Orcrest is a real dump (I mean that in the nicest possibler way!)

I suppose one could argue that as Cyrodiil is the capital province of the Cyrodillic Empire it should be pretty wealthy, as it svcks in money from all the other provinces.

Actually, I disagree about Leyawiin. IMO it should be a very wealthy city given it's strategic location. It controls the entry to the Niben river system, and therefore the sea lanes to Imperial City, it is ( also on the main east west route along the south coast, linking Blackmarsh with Elseweyr and Valenwood. I think it should display extremes of wealth and poverty, with incredibly rich merchant princes living in huge opulent palaces, bustling markets and exotic foreigners, but also slum areas populated by desperate immigrants from Argonia and Elseweyr. If IC is an anologue of Rome I think Leyawiin should be an anologue of Constantinople.

I didn't mean that Leyawiin should be a slum as well, but it would be nice if there was a little consistency. Beth made Leyawiin out to be a bit nasty, but never really followed through.

BC did a good job on the Rich/Poor diversity if you ask me. Though, I think BC was inspired by New Orleans (at least I get that feeling.)


:EDIT: Holy crap! Nernie's work is plastered all over BC and I didn't even know it! Her Galena tailor mod, Waterfront Market, Bravil River shack and Village are all a part of BC now. Grotto doesn't appear to be, so it should be safe to use with BC. To think, I've always admired the work done to the Waterfront, and didn't even know it was one of my favourite modders!

... if there even is plaster. I mean, look at the fort ruins - they look like they haven't been maintained for centuries, with all the plaster long gone. No wonder they're in ruins...

Maybe you'll be interested in http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1068112, because it asks a similar question.

But all in all, i completely agree with the OP. I also think cities should be much dirtier. You may be interested in my modification of cities. I am currently working on Imperial City, and i'll eventually overhaul every town of Cyrodiil. It is not finished yet, and it appeals to much smaller group of mod-users then famous BC, but some of you may afford to use it.

Totally agree, and even with a throng of good mods, it just doesnt look/feel filthy enough... theres not enough depravity, ugliness and death to balance out the world. In medieval times, people who didnt live in a castle were filthy, public executions and humiliations were the norm, plague and pestilence ran rampant among the towns, nobles were cruel to the poor and kept their distance from the sick and dying. Towns were constantly getting pillaged or overrun by waring factions. Fear was everywhere. Oblivion took the more colorful, safe (and boring) approach imo. Hope they mature the world a bit in ES5, perhaps stir in a bit of "mount and blade".

The more I look the more I realize that there are next to no nasty or dirty mods. Maybe if we all find a handful, a list could be made.

RedBag, I'm definitely going to look your mod over good. I might get rid of BC IC and use mods it incorporated and such. (Though, the cobbler was a really nice touch that I absolutely love)

What are you all talking about, Pell's Gate is lovely.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/ScreenShot102-1.jpg

With friendly residents...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/ScreenShot120.jpg

Cosy local taverns...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/ScreenShot115.jpg

Up and coming neighbourhoods...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/ScreenShot111.jpg

Lovely centrally located hovels homes for sale...

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/Shezrie/ScreenShot116.jpg

I'm pretty sure that Grotto is there too. I've found a cave in the Waterfront tunnel. If you go from the Waterfront to the main IC, you should take an immediate right (where you can go to the Market District) and open that door. Then, find the cellar, enter it, turn left at the bed and the grotto enterance should be through that door.

An open cooking fire ... on wooden floorboards. How can that possibly go wrong?

Seriously though, I'm really looking forward to Pell's Gate when it comes out

Meek, sorry for the misunderstanding. I clearly misrepresented your beautiful town, and deeply apologize. I'll be moving in as soon as there are vacancies.


Jet, I know what you're talking about but I don't think that's it. The grotto was only accessible by TG members, and it looked more like a sewer.

Ok. Could be. But that's the only grotto that I know of in BC. Not that I've entered every house and every doorway, of course.

You will have no troubles finding something to suit, there is a very high turnover of homes in Pell's Gate. Something to do with murder rates or something.

What I'm guessing is that you people here all need a strong counter-balance for that sterile design/atmosphere of the game. You say you want filth, but you really want the game to look less clean, and the first thing that comes to mind is that there aren't many beggars or lower quarters in the cities.
If that is even slightly the case, then it will probably be very frustrating for you, because no matter how many "filth mods" you add to your game, it never seems to be enough - because the main problem isn't the amount of filth and litter in the streets.

I'm saying this simply because I believe that's the reason why I'm having a problem with Oblivion. I remember that the first screenshots looked like a "happy magic fantasy world" - not because there weren't any tears in the walls or not enough litter on the ground, but simply because of certain design choices which even made those run-down places look nice and shiny somehow.

So recently, I tried to remove a lot of that sterility by changing certain textures a little bit. I started with the book texture, which has always annoyed me because it looked so perfect: http://img130.imageshack.us/i/bookold.jpg/ - http://img9.imageshack.us/i/booknew.jpg/
It might need a little bit of tweaking, but I think it goes into the right direction. Also, http://img12.imageshack.us/i/newmenu.jpg/ (which will probably never see the light of day) tries to apply this to most of the menu textures.

The basic idea is to change the "impression" you get from a scene - the first glance. If you look closer, you'll still notice that there is no horse dung on the ground, but you wouldn't even mind, because you don't miss it. You realize that a game can only display certain things, for the rest it has to give you the impression that it's there, even though you can't see it.
You can compare that to impressionism vs. academic art: The former succeeds even when it doesn't show you every detail, while the latter really needs a lot of details, or else it'll look like something's missing. (This doesn't apply as well to my example above - the book background texture - as I would like to, because those "menu" textures lack in both detail and style, and I'm actually adding both of that when I add a dog-ear and make the pages at the side messier as well as making the paper darker... but you get the idea.)

I'm sorry if this post is a little bit confusing, but it's a rough outline of my ideas concerning the lack of filth in the game.
It's of course the purpose of modding to eventually add all these things like dung, litter, dirty clothes etc. to a game, but they will only work well if we adapt the game's design first. Right now, it doesn't matter if we fill the whole street with feces and blood, a screenshot would still look like "happy magic fantasy world"... and I'm tired of living in that!
(By the way, yes, Nernie's work is godly, and Pell's Gate will be a milestone in town modding.)

That is not confusing at all, Fearabbit, you made a very good point. Those textures look like a very good improvement, i would like to see more of it.

By the way, i think it was you who made a very good suggestion on my Chorrol Pack thread, saying towns should look grayer, less grassier.

Medieval towns were cramped, filthy places, especially in times of war or famine. Medieval villages? Not so much. People did value a clean house as much as we do nowadays. Yes, the floors consisted mostly of hard dry clay, and yes, farm animals were often living among the people, but you'd be surprised how clean you can keep such a household anyway. People did bathe regularly and kept their teeth clean too - when the alternative is a very painful tooth removal without anaesthetics, you tend to take care of them.

I agree on all your points, Fear. I don't really care about seeing a big pile of dung in the street so much as making the street look as if there'd be dung in it.

And Khadir, I can kind of see the villages being clean, but cities should really be foul cesspools. And I would assume in a world of magick, that healers would be able to repair teeth.

Ah, but in a world of easily accessible magick (if a commoner had no problems getting magical medical care), it should be equially easy to put that magic to use for other common chores, such as a basic cleaning task.

Or, you know, Enemies Explode at the ground, make it nice and glassy

Repair teeth at a price the local peasants could afford, too?

Cities should be cesspools, but not simply due to negligence or lack of effort, but due to how cramped up they are - way too many people living on way too small area. Which the Oblivion cities and towns simply aren't. And with 30% of the populations being in the employment of the city (37% in case of the Imperial city - 116 guards to 199 normal citizens), there's really no reason for the streets to not be clean.

Ok, we can now use our imagination to cover up some holes in the Oblivion's world. But let's not exaggerate. If we suggest magic is so widely used, then we decrease the value of magic. Let's stay at default - an everyday normal guy can maybe only barely cast a minor fireball or a small heal spell, and even that is unlikely. Magic can only be used in form of default spells, and few of them are known to public. Magic that is used beyond that does exist, but is extremely rare.

Now let's rather make those crappy resources, shall we?

Edit: @KhadirgroGhurkag, with mods, you can make your cities much more populated and packed.