Not at all. He was definitely one of the few good things about the Enclave in F03. A definite improvement over the old President (Name escapes me at the moment).

However, I would have liked Eden even more, if he was the leader of some other faction, like the Institute or something.

Also, lowering my opinion of Beth's version of the Enclave, is Autumn.

That, was the final boss?! Autumn cannot compare to Frank Horrigan.

President of Enclave before Eden was Richardson


I wanted to see a Frank Horrigan type of boss as well at the end or just Col. Autumn being a complete beast with a beastly gun that would ave actually forced me to fight

I doubt that anything short of VB would have pleased the traditional fans. They don't like what was included, they don't like the game systems, and if Beth didn't include any franchise props they still wouldn't like the game, so waht's the point?

I can see it now: Fallout 3, with no supermutants, no Enclave, no BoS, no SPECIAL at all, and as Gizmo argues, just the name and the cartoons.

Would you people like it then?

It would be more honest, that's for sure. I would at least have some respect for Bethesda in this sense. But that's not really your angle to argue is it. Everyone, vets or not, is an individual when all is said and done, with their own preferences to that end.

Fallout 3, no supermutant threat, new Enclave, no or few BoS, SPECIAL with REAL consequences for gameplay... That's what I suggested, as a fan of the series since Fallout 1.
And that's what I think would have been more pleasing the die-hard fans, if Bethesda had researched lore more thoroughly instead of picking up stuff that should not be where it is now - FEV one of the more prominent things.
I'd very well go with a small expedition group of the BoS - with an attitude like the outcasts, as in 'what it probably should be like' - protecting the civilians only to further their own goals (reaching, well, it could be Liberty Prime, he'd fit in), while a government enclave on the East Coast tries to lure them away to build up a massive army to get back their rightful property, the US of A, and can only be stopped from reaching this goal, and thus taking away whatever the BoS wants to find in DC. That, and they having some really neat equipment, too, that's in the wrong hands, according to BoS thinking.
Each faction just using people, who are struggling to survive in that environment and trying to rebuild civilization. That would be Fallout, even without mutant threat and all. And add SPECIAL with real effects on gameplay, e.g. not hitting a brahmin from a meter distance with P=1, more roleplaying situations....
How could that not be greater than this collage in Fallout 3? ^_^
I'd not say that everyone will be pleased with continuing this series in FPS way, now, but RPGified like that, and not action RP like it is now... Certainly more of the old fanbase would have liked it, and even thought it would be a good 'Fallout' game, and not only some post-apocalyptic thingamajig that's got stuff in it that was seen in the previous games. All of that IMHO. :hehe:

I agree on super mutants (but not another super mutant army being a major threat), Vaults and Power Armor, not on Enclave and Brotherhood of Steel.



I wouldn't mind a few super mutants, but not in the form of yet another major threat from yet another FEV research facility. Just a few remnants of the Master's Army who ventured that far. And who said anything about no SPECIAL? But yes, I do hope Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 4 won't have any Enclave nor Brotherhood of Steel.

There are other major staples of the Fallout series/setting: the Vaults, Vault-Tec, the Enclave as the pre-War nefarious shadow government, not necessarily as current-day faction, power armors (especially the T-51b), Nuka-Cola and various other corporations, ghouls, super mutants (but again, more like in FO2 and VB, not as a major threat again), and of course the divergence, alternate timeline and retro-futurism.

Instead of using the Brotherhood in every Fallout game ad nauseum, I'd prefer more local power armored groups descended from the US Army and different in various ways from the BoS (it's not as if Lyons' faction of the BoS isn't different enough to just make them into an entirely different faction altogether).

VB was actually less popular with the fans before Beth picked up the license.

But you are generally wrong in implying that this particular issue is a result of an unpleasable fanbase. People were getting tired of supermutants, the BOS, and FEV when they were rehashed in FO2. And I personally never really liked the Enclave (genocidal lunatics aren't terribly compelling). There was absolutely no reason to include any of those things in the new game, especially the Enclave.

Well, depends on which fans we're talking about. Much of the negativity was also based on partial leaks of the plot that didn't do the full story justice, before the design docs were leaked.

Names... just names. The factions those names are applied to don't behave like the those that had those names before. This is true for the Brotherhood, for the Supermutants*, and even for SPECIAL itself.

Fallout 3 is a great title, but it's gameplay is not just part of the set; its unique in the series, just like most spin-off titles. Its got it's own thing going on, separate and distinct from the series that its been roughly grafted to, and shares its setting with.
~This is plain to see... Its something they teach kindergartners and even at that age they have no trouble http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW8HqoDV_lM..

*(just listen to the 400 lines of Dialog for the F3 supermutants; Does even one speak in a manner similar to Marcus, the Lieutenant, or Frank Horrigan ~No, they all speak like a deeper voiced Polsius from Arx Fatalis) ~In a battle of wits... Even Harry could take them on a good day.

I would have loved Fallout 3's story if it was like that. It fits the setting, and makes the gameworld feel that much more alive. The way Bethesda did it, it feels so...black and white. BoS versus the Enclave/Super Mutants. I want more grey factions, as I find them much more interesting and believable.

that is exactly what half of the people complaining need to hear. Can you honestly tell me you wanted to ply the exact same typoe of thing three games in a row?

Of course!!

That's what I like, and expect [Its a series... like 3,5,7,9...?? ~It should have similar commonalities].
Does it have to be 2d ~no; Does it have to be 8-bit color ~no; Does it have to be a strategic ISO style RPG with the writing as its strong point, and some diabolically clever interactions; absolutely! {and personally TB a combat option}.
~Was it? .... Was it any of it?

Most importantly ~it has to out-do the original at its own game... It didn't even try.
(It was a fight they didn't want to pick.)

Obviously the game had fans. Some fans of the old games like FO3. I'm just saying that I notice many more VB fans now that the game has been canceled. People get upset about the fact that Beth didn't add anything good to the universe. Can you imagine the uproar if they added something like Caesar's Legion?

I do not expect the exact same gameplay, but I did expect the same *style* of gameplay. FO1, FO2 and VB had the same gameplay style. TES1-IV have mostly the same gameplay style. FO3's is more like the latter than the former. I doubt many fans of Elder Scrolls would be happy if TES V was turn-based with a pseudo-isometric viewpoint.



Maybe some of them who didn't think it was going to be as good as FO1 and 2 now appreciate it compared to Bethesda's Fallout 3?



I know some people didn't like them, but I wouldn't mind them included e.g. in Fallout: New Vegas. I wouldn't expect as much of an uproar as you think there would be.

That's precisely what I'm suggesting. We always want what we can't have.

Well, I was specifically talking about what the reaction would have been if it was an original idea from Bethesda. Like I said, people seem to be less critical of VB than they were in the past, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was a double standard of sorts.

It's not about wanting what we can't have. It's simply about some of the bad ideas in Van Buren not seeming that bad compared to worse ones in Bethesda's Fallout 3.



Well, e.g. the reactions to the Commonwealth/Institute have been much more positive than to their rehashes of old factions.

Uhm... I'm a "traditional fan," and I like Fallout 3...

I just don't agree with some of the choices they made this time around. I honestly don't see how some of these changes make for such an incredibly perfect game that there's nothing at all that could even concievably have done in a better way. And I seriously don't see how it always has to be an either/ or thing around here.

The institute is based on science fiction at least. I suspect that something like the Legion would have been less well accepted, especially with all of the "Morrowind with guns" talk.

It's not really much different from the Khans from FO1, aside from the scope.

The Khans didn't dress up like Khans, and the leader wasn't named Genghis or Kublai.

They were actually going to (see the Garl concept art) but the devs didn't have time to make unique sprites for them. And FO2's Metzger was originally going to be called Caesar.

That would have been something, but ultimately the finished product defines the setting (strictly for some people). The Khans came across as a gang with no special ties to their name.

That's basically the one thing that makes a good Fallout story. No black or white, just shades of grey, as Richard. ^_^
I always take the originally proposed ending to Junktown as an example. Support the 'good' mayor, the city will become xenophobic and will stagnate in fear, support the fat gangster and it will prosper...

Just wanted to comment on this.

Did you not run into the Brotherhood Outcasts? They're pretty much the same isolationist, technology-hoarding bastards that we know and love from Fallout 1.

The "main" Brotherhood faction in Fallout 3 appears to be a more liberal, expansionist sect.

I haven't actually... but I knew of them for reading about it months back...

Heh, it seems like the Outcast might be a subtle joke... Given that the original is the outcast these days.