Time to defend Crimson...

Actually, I believe that the other provinces were under attack by the Daedra, but it's hard for the local Cyrodillic governments to care about Elsweyr or Skyrim seeing as there were Oblvion gates opening up in their own backyard. The Empire, however, had to not only defend Cyrodiil, but keep the rest of the Empire together. No, two legions (About 5-15 each using Oblivion's scaling) could not have been withdrawn, because the generals were too busy defending Solitude, Mournhold, Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, Stros M'kai, Torval, Possibly Senchal(but maybe not), and other, more important cities and districts than Bruma.

I also think Mehrunes Dagon has been taking lessons from Boethiah like he did 40 years earlier... Honestly, though Cyrodiil was hit first, Dagon focused the majority of his attacks on the outer provinces as a diversion to keep the empire off balance. It seemed to take a long time to prepare a place for a major offensive, but the preperations were mostly invisible (hence the fall of Kvatch). In order for Dagon to stop the Empire from uniting its legions in Cyrodiil and get overwhelmed at the neccessary chokepoints (Oblivion Gates) by the military might of the Empire, then he needed to apply lots of pressure to the outside provinces. The deadlands are infinite in size and population, so he could afford to "spread his forces" because 1% of infinity is still infinity. However, Dagon also needed to use his limited followers on the inside to open the large gates needed to allow his troops through.

If the Empire managed to shut the gates down or repair the Allessian barrier, then Dagon would lose the war, so he sent own secret agents to disrupt the line of succession. Without the "hero" to come save the day, there was no way the Empire could have won the war Dagon played, because if they pulled troops from the provinces to fortify the Imperial Province, Dagon's outer forces would have used the provinces as a massive staging ground and ammassed enough forces on this side of the luminal barrier to win even if the empire managed to disable their gates, and render no chance for the hero to save the day. Instead, the Empire played the Hero gambit, and came out on top. If Dagon had not left Cyrodiil mostly unmolested, the Empire would have clammed up and escalated its attempts to recover the amulet and repair the barriers. By keeping the pressure off Cyrodiil, he let the blades believe time was on their side and could afford to "play it safe" and have them give him the time he needed to build up the force to take the Imperial City (the crucial point)... Unfortunately, he underestimated the competance of the Champion of Cyrodiil, and was forced to launch the attack early.

And on a note completely irrelevant to the MQ... if schedules, dialogue, and the game's .nifs don't count toward Oblivion's standing lore, why do scrolling text and in-game books get a pass? I am of the impression that Oblivion's lore is just more subtle and integrated into gameplay than Morrowind's was.

That has more plausability Scow2 - but apart from Ald'ruhn and the Ghost Gate just how many attacks were you told about and by whome?

Next - All the other Provinces have Kings and other Leaders in them as well as their own armed forces. Without knowing the scale and locations of attacks in other Provinces how can anything be claimed?

Schedules are on the same level of importance as out-houses. People do actually need to relieve them self on regular basis, just like they need to eat, sleep, drink and [censored], but these things are self evident. If NPCs didn't have schedules you could easily take those things for granted. Just as everybody still takes it for granted that people do actually take a regular leak.

The schedule only becomes important when there is a story attached, but then they're important because they've become an integral part of a story. Only then you can't take schedule for granted. Never the less, the same effect can still be accomplished using different storytelling techniques. So the actual contribution of schedules to relevant lore is non-existent. It doesn't add anything that story hasn't already.

For models I would say the same thing. They are part of the setting and help create a mood. Nobody actually believes the Imperial city is made up of six thematic districts with only a limited number of buildings and a palace the size of one board room. Just as nobody believes the Cantons of Vivec hold no more then 5-10(?) rooms each. They do however attempt to create a feeling of a massive city.

And who told you dialogue isn't relevant? They need to smack themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean by subtle and integrated, but I wouldn't call the 8-by-8 design pattern subtle or integrated. Quests don't relate the world at large, they're all contained in their own quest universe.

A good example of this containment is the incongruence between the representation of Traven in the Thieves Guild quests and in the Guild of Mages quests. In the former he comes off as strong and aggressive, using Dremora as a delivery boy. Yet the latter shows him as a gentle old man.
Or in general, if you aren't doing a quest that relates to the main quest, there won't be any mention of Oblivion gates or the dead emperor and the empty throne. To give a contemporary example, imagine if some one shot Barak Obama and launched an invasion on the United States. If that would happen, nobody would talk about anything else.

In short not only is much of the basic furniture missing - most of the essential rooms are too.

Someone says - hi guys we just built a state of the art operating theatre. There it is ... then you look at the plans and see there is no scrub room, no access road for ambulances, no reception, no wards. Looking at the operating theatre itself something seems to be missing - there are lights of amazing futuristic design all over the room that the surgeon can focus where he wants and dim or brighten with nods and shakes of his head. There are magnifying lenses that are made of thin air that can be manipulated by virtually untrained theatre technicians, wow! - umm where is the operating table, the cutting tools and forceps etc ... you only have part of the picture.

As has been said, before attempting the Imperial Province games set in all the other Provinces should have been released. that is where a lot of the detail should have come from.

I don't think they would have to create every other province. In basis the Imperials have more then enough going for them to be interesting on their own. Especially if fleshed out.

With a strong Imperial identity influenced by the legions, 400 years of pax imperia, thousands of cults, merchant aristocracy and basically everything in the PGE should be enough to create the feel that you are in the heart of the Empire. Once everything is there it should take ages to familiarize and understand everything that goes on so you can actually feel lost in the size of it, even though it's less then a mile across.

So the feeling of visiting the Imperial city should be anything but familiar. Something you've vaguely seen in every other game isn't going to do that. Now don't take this to mean that it shouldn't be primarily weird like the Shivering Isles. It's not the same as imposing, alien or unknown.

I was just dissapointed of how the Imperial province seemed weak. As I said before, Cyrodill didnt feel like the heart of the empire as it should. Where did the navy go? I know that properbly all of the navy is out in the other province coast, but we dont even hear where the imperial harbor lies. Its almost like that there is no navy!

Also, we dont see polititians or other stuff like that. I imagined the Green Imperial Way, would be filled with polititians, generals or staff members. We never even see the counts gather together to a meeting. And BOY was the White Gold Tower BORING. Come on, the tower is build in the ancient times, and is the center of ALL of Tamriel, and what a dissapointment it was to walk inside. No throne room, no dinner hall, coudnt even walk into the guards qarters. That just lame.

And by the time you walk outside the imperial city, it like that your not even in the same province. The major cities look like villages. Chorrol, Bruma, Anvil.....wtf? come on, 1 smith, 1 merchant, 2 inns, and thats it. I remember morrowind, when I walked into a city I could find a smith, pawnbroker, clothier, an inn, trader, sorcerer shop, and other things. Just feel that the cities of cyrodill felt "empty".

Overall, oblivion was only about killing stuff. Killing stuff, but with better graphics.

The bit I quoted from Ocato earlier is what he says when the COC visits to ask for assistance defending Bruma - which leads to the COC shutting down the Oblivion gates outside of the different cities so their local force can spare a few troops for Bruma's sake. I took Ocato to be saying that the imperial army was busy dealing with daedra in other provinces - it was the only obvious reason that several garrisons wouldn't be called back to Cyrodiil as soon as Kvatch went down.

(Ocato also explains why the Elder Council is nowhere to be found.)

And I agree that the Imperial City was much less than it could have been. I wanted to see a populated bridge.

But the people do talk about those things in rumors. Before Kvatch, everyone's talking about the assassination. After Kvatch, everyone's talking about how the daedra devastated the city. Later on, they talk about how the Septim heir has been found. And, of course, townsfolk are extremely rattled when Oblivion gates are open outside of their city. NPCs bring the subject up so often that I tire of the repetitiveness of the comments.

Rumors reflecting on your progress in a quests are part of that quest. What I was talking about was the interaction between quests and elements of the world that are not strictly part of that quest.

Fair enough that you quoted Occato - but my assessment of him as either senile or a traitor stands. Given no rumours other than Ald'ruhn aqnd Ghostgate and th efact that all those Provinces have their own armies? If you defend your hands and arms leaving your head and heart open for a clear strike then you are dead.

Either all those general were fools or traitors or Occato was. One man and no support when all the local garrisons have been overrun? Cmon. No matter how good the CoC was what was occuring was a full scale invasion. Major cities atacked. If that is not full scale then what is? And you do not send one man unsupported to fight a full scale invasion. If you have no men to support him then you recall whatever troops are required from other Provinces because Cyrodiil IS the country, the Heart of Empire and there is no other place more important.

Remember when Haymon devastated the Western Kingdoms? The Legions were witheld TO DEFEND THE IMPERIAL PROVINCE. That's Lore.

But as I said before, the full-scale invasion hadn't begun. The real invasion would begin once Mehrunes Dagon showed up. Hence why they didn't attack most of the towns even though they were in position to do so.

Ocato wanted more troops in Cyrodiil, but he wasn't able to get any.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Although most posters in this thread are guilty of it to some extent. I'm guilty too, but at least I recognize the fact.

Anyways, Oblivion gates are opening up in other provinces as well. The imperial army is divided and sent throughout the empire. Members of the Elder Council return to their home provinces to try to deal with the situation there. Ocato requests military aid for Cyrodiil but the other council members don't oblige, and Ocato doesn't have the power to override the council. That's what happened, take from it what you will.

That's uncalled for Dumbkid. This is not a personal criticism of you or anyone. This is just about what has been presented here.

What I am basing my responses on is what is written in this thread mostly and also stuff that has been written and linked to on these forums as well as RL.

If you or others have further info or a point of view that alters things then I should remain free to respond to that - if no ... that is not my error.

RL
Dunkirk was not the entire invasion - it was the beachhead - the Germans failed to answer sufficiently because they were already heavily committed on the Eastern Front, they had limited supples of oil and fuel and they believed an attack was coming elsewhere. Neverless they met that invasion force with everything they could summon at the time.

IG
99 gates opening with unknown but numerous Daedra pouring out, including the razing of a major city in the Imperial Province is not a raid - it is an invasion and well you both know it.

No one has come up with a sprecific in-game quote about Gates in other Provinces other than references to Ald'ruhn and the Ghost Gate - that says there were major attacks in those two locations. As far as Lore is concerned that's it until you show you have more. If you have info from in-game then post it please.

You say
So post the info - where are the quotes? Maybe there is more in them that supports your position than you have said?

And I am saying that at least an attempt to recall elements ought to have been made. Is that wrong?

Occato is the Lord Chancellor - he pays the wages. The Elder Council is an advisory body to the Emperor - nowhere have I seen that they are a military body, nor have I seen that they control the Imperial military. Nor do they rule. They do appear to have discretion in the choice and confirmation of a new Emperor. But there is precedent for the Imperial Chancellor to direct the military in the absence of an Emperor - and the Chancellor has the very thing to ensure that they will obey - he controls the purse strings.

How can the Elder Council which has disbanded and returned to the Provinces according to you be in control of Imperial Policy? They have disbanded therefore they are no longer a factor in determining Imperial Policy, which is central government policy - they become local worthies of some note who have information to offer the Imperial Authority and may deal with local matters according to their station in local affairs - nothing more.

Crimson earlier stated that Occato's generals refused military aid to the Home Province which was under attack - solution replace one or two of them immediately. That is how real empires deal with such things. Especially when the home forces have been decimated as at Kvatch. The other possibility that could be posited here is that there is a rebellion against the Imperial Authority among the generals. But that does not make sense if only because local Legions are drawn from members of races not indigenous to the areas they are stationed in. Look at the Nords in Ebonheart or the Orcs further north at Gnisi on the west coast of Vvardenfell. So all in all I favour Occato as the problem. Either he does not have what it takes or he is a traitor. Your statements there do not refute that position Dumbkid.

This thread is about 'Disappointment'. My disappointment is that these and so many other matters do not seem to have been addressed adequately if at all - as they might have been with a bit of extra dialogue and a couple of books, notes, official documents. In the absence of those we remain free to post our views and may commonsense win.

If you are satisfied with what has been placed in-game then that is a different matter - good for you, but without facts that show I have missed something why would you suggest that what I have said is incorrect. I am after all mainly basing what I have said to you on your and Crimson's posts and the in-game quotes that you have come up with as well as Lore. If I am wrong then so are you.

I know that the empire?s forces is spread oit to the other provinces, but not even a few garrisons is left. Cyrodill needed to have some garrisons in their own province, atleast 2-3 forts as boot-camp, but no, not even a simple boot-camp or not even a recruite headquarters do we get to see, and thats a dissapontment.

Even in world war 2, the allied forces were sent to europe, africa, and the pacific to fight the nazi, and STILL alot of soldiers back in the USA. So dont tell me that cyrodill wouldnt have garrisons, thats just unrealistick.

The world is scaled down... Not sure how many soldiers those stray wandering guys represented... But they were supposed to be the military presense...

My post wasn't intended as a personal attack on you or anyone else, my apologies if it seemed that way. I see nothing to be gained from personal attacks. You can point out what you percieve to be a mistake in someone else's reasoning without attacking them personally - I was only intending to do the former, not the latter.

What I was trying to say was that I think you might be reading your own interpretation into what Ocato is saying, rather than reading out of it what he actually means. That's an example of confirmation bias, which is a very common mistake in reasoning. That was never intended to be a personal attack on you, only a criticism of your reasoning.

To be fair, you could charge me with the same mistake. You ask where these other protals are opening. I will concede that I have no specific answer to this question which is supported by in-game evidence. I don't recall anything specific about it being mentioned in-game. When I read Ocato, I concluded that he was refering to Oblivion gates opening in other provinces. If I don't have a good reason to draw that conclusion, them I'm guilty of confirmation bias as well. I'm fair, see?

Here is my reasoning: I think the best interpretation of what Ocato says is that Oblivion gates have opened in other provinces, and I think this conclusion is further supported by the fact that we were told subsequently that Oblivion gates had opened in the other provinces. So, my interpetation is based on an inference to the best explanation, and then is substantiated after the fact by corroborating evidence. That's about as good as it's going to get without someone explicitly naming where Oblivion gates have opened. If that's what it will take to convince you, then there's nothing I can say.

Moving on. I don't think Ocato has as much power as you think. My perception is that each Province, and consequently each Council member, has a good deal of autonomy. And the Elder Council has not disbanded, they've only returned to their individual provinces. Ocato specifically says that they're in communication - otherwise he couldn't be asking them for troops.

My take is that the empire on the whole was in a bad spot, and the council members headed to their provinces to deal with the problem at home - taking some troops with them (all the while retaining communications with Cyrodiil). Ocato by himself doesn't have sufficient political power to override them. Whether you think that was a good strategy for dealing with the crisis is seperate from what they actually did. You, and others, might think they should have retained more troops in the imperial province, and if you want to criticize the empire on a strategic level that's fine. But the fact is that they did what they did, and as far as I'm concerned an in-game explanation was given for it.

And of course everyone's free to voice their disappointments in Oblivion, I just think some of the criticisms are unsubstantiated. So, here's my list:

What I liked about Oblivion: Books. Learning about the mythical nature of the empire/emperor. Learning about the Aylieds. Learning about the relation/conflict between the Mages Guild, necromancy, and Mannimarco. Learning what a dreugh looks like during its karvinasm. Being introduced to a heterodox view of the mythos (from Camoran).

What I disliked about Oblivion: That it was a temperate and decidous forest rather than a jungle. That the imperial city was smaller and less interesting than Vivec City (which itself was less interesting than it should have been). That there were no snake-men. That we didn't learn much about the political workings of the cities and how they relate to the capital city, etc. The fact that I'm still uncertain as to what the deal with the amulet was.

Perhaps that's just it Scow2 - the fact that the legions were represented in a way that did not impress as Imperial or even military - they were more like local guards. To put something in and do it badly can be worse than leaving it out. But one way or another there should have been something that felt adequate. In Morrowind the oraganisation of the Legions was represented by their Forts, but in the Imperial province during a military capmaign all that we saw were individuals or pairs. Nor even a patrol? No home barracks. Nothing substantial. The nature of Empoire was largely ignored other than the presence of the Imperial Palace which was not adequate to convey as sense of buerocracy let alone Imperial hegemony.

If you want a cheap way to show the nature of the Legion then video cut-scenes might have been introduced showing what actually happened with realistic numbers. Every Major Town could have had a legion Fort with barracks for several Legions - done in the same way that Forts/barracks were done in Morrwind, but overall more numerous and some info introduced to infer that each served as headquarters or whatever for a number of Legions, but that Legions are normally rotated - spending most of their time in other Provinces - whatever. There is too much explanation and there is understatement. But what was done was absence - sithis strikes again.



no worries



The way I look at this is that Occato wants the listener to believe that Oblivion Gates are opening in other Provinces. Then like you I look for further evidence.

Given that the only specifics given are on two Gates opening in one other Province it is fair to query whether it is happening in more than Cyrodiil and Morrowind. The devs could have created a few docs to show more detail had they so wished, yet they chose to leave that open to speculation - I believe that was their intention and therefore take the view that speculation is encouraged.

Use it or lose it. Actually as stated previously I believe that Occato was either senile or a traitor - in which case his summation was not to be entirely trusted. Lore generally seems to state that Morrowind was the Province with the greatest autonomy ... but in any case, each province is a kingdom in itself and has its own forces. Imperial forces are not there to protect them against each other. Imperial forces are there to insure that they remain part of the Empire.

In times ancient and modern if a head of government travelled abroad government did not cease. If there is a military situation then decisions are made at the center with leeway given to commanders in the field. But the Elder Council is not a military body and basically they advise. The Chancellor has power actual and temporal. The focus of authority is clearly split thus: Elder Council = Imperial succession and matters arcane; Chancellor = member of Elder council, but has own authority in matters fiscal and temporal. In the event of a lapse in Imperial succession that is how it is. Then it is up to each to shoulder their own responsibilities.

Members of the Elder Council could not requisition troops or command them without authority - the military commanders would simply refer them to the proper authority = Occato. And military commanders in the Imperial Province would not permit their troops to be removed from the Imperial Province while it was under invasion. It's a tissue of lies.



I have similar likes and dislikes. Though there is one small point - Camoran is Dagon's boy - born and raised. His mother knew this before he was born and (unlike the case of his father) I doubt that he ever had a view that was not wholly Dagon's - that last is my take based on The Refugees. I go with that because not only is the Refugees written simply, authoritatively, powerfully, sensitively and persuasively, it adds up in common-sense terms expanding where further information is desirable and there is nothing to contradict.

Just discovered this quote from the Argonian Compendium in the Imperial Library - it may give us all some hope:

i think if oblivion kept its graphics, gameplay, and organization and mixed it with Morrowinds lore, books, and NPC topics, then Oblivion would not have beens such let down.

*snorts*
If that was their initial plan, theyve fallen far from it. Oblivion with its neatly delineated black and white surely did nothing to help uncover dirt in Tamriel.

Fun game, no depth. I would imagine they'll have learned from their mistakes and will actually set a whole army of lorists to work on the next one (though one would hope that they will either build off what they've created in Oblivion, or else will revert to the original concepts). Don't tell me that I'm being overly-optimistic: looking forwards to the next game is what makes it all okay.

Biggest let-down... well... oblivion was very bland. The scenery was all very generic, as were the creatures, etc. I guess I was hoping for something more... well, special. Some hints at Cyrodiil's history and unique flavour in its appearance.

1ed PGE Cyrodiil surely beats Oblivion Cyrodiil handdown. Not only landscape (Jungle vs medieval European forrests), but especially Nibenese culture as described there, completly ignored... ah well. Yes, Id like to believe theyve leanred - after all, its routinely named as main critciism of OB, and in Polls MW routinely scores better than OB. I doubt it, though. I mean, I may just been naturally pessimist, but making bland games is so much easier and sells just as well, doesnt it? Especially as we lore idiots will probably buy the game anyways.

It all comes down to $$$.

The hope lies in the fact that they raked it in with Oblivion and that may have given them enough leeway to do better with TESV - very hopefully plus I also feel that Cyrodiil was just too challenging right then - though there may be other things planned that require a Cyrodiil release first.

My belief was that an overly-demanding graphics package along with the dreaded Vista and serious consolitis due to the intense competition at the release of new console harware made Oblivion's release unique. I suspect that they were afraid Oblivion would to blow out the ordinary console platform games at that time if it was in the Morrowind open world format etc ... so it was dumbed down.

At any other time they might have been able to continue with XBox as they had with Morrowind by making the consoles adapt to the PC version rather than the other way around.

It could have been more interesting if the Cyrodiil release was in another format entirely - more a strategy game with a lot of Lore added - telling a story for a change, and not promoting it as TES IV. That would have left the way open to explore the remaining Provinces in RPG.

sic transit gloria mundi

They don't know enough about Tamriel to make it interesting. Its going to be Might and Magic with "live another life in another world" for now on. Screw mythology, lets just make lovely sitting animations and alot of houses to purchase. Lets make sure to use familiar settings, familiar politics and plenty of friendly stereotypes to make a world that the player feels comfortable living in. This is what the players want, and this is what they'll get. Break from role playing for awhile, Bethesda.