Dissapointment

Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:00 am

I miss all the topics people had in morrowind. Someone in particular, latest rumours, little secret, background, my trade and they told a lot of stuff you know about things :P

I blame voiced dialogue...
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Victor Oropeza
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:23 pm

http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml Oblivion could not change that, nor could it live up to the imagery.

Amen!

Its not just the jungle. Landscape... bad enough, but meh. But I want Nibenese culture! Baroque Akaviri aesthetics, bizarre cults, ancestor worship and nature spirits, ruling classes of merchants and aristocratic battlemages!
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Kira! :)))
 
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Post » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:47 pm

I miss all the topics people had in morrowind. Someone in particular, latest rumours, little secret, background, my trade and they told a lot of stuff you know about things :P

LGNPC wasn't in vanilla, though.

I miss the topics too, and they were useful for roleplaying, mods, and variety, but I wouldn't ever call MW's dialog system good.
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Caroline flitcroft
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:10 am

I keep telling ya': culture man. That's the only je ne sais quoi that Morrowind had over Oblivion. Oblivion tried to put culture onto the individual level but failed utterly because the individuals weren't connected to the wider community.

Culture.
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HARDHEAD
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:11 am

The feeling of it beinga world with culture, people and conflicts, for me it was ampty, a plate with houses, NPCs and quests on it.
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HARDHEAD
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:28 pm

I keep telling ya': culture man. That's the only je ne sais quoi that Morrowind had over Oblivion. Oblivion tried to put culture onto the individual level but failed utterly because the individuals weren't connected to the wider community.

Culture.

More like House politics than "culture". The Ashlanders and Skaal were the only really fleshed out "cultures" and that's partly because they stood out so much.
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Deon Knight
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:19 pm

I don't recognize your use of the word. The Dunmer are depicted in much more detail than the Ashlanders and Skaal, and it's not "politics," because Dunmeri politics are peculiar to the Dunmer and their religion and hence, culture.
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Mr. Allen
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:25 pm

I don't recognize your use of the word. The Dunmer are depicted in much more detail than the Ashlanders and Skaal, and it's not "politics," because Dunmeri politics are peculiar to the Dunmer and their religion and hence, culture.

Like what exactly? The political differences were only in Dunmer who actually belonged to that Great House, not just someone who lives in a Great House-controlled area. And I don't remember a lot of actual "culture" in the game. Just Dunmer standing around all day and all night.
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Connie Thomas
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:01 am

Like what exactly? The political differences were only in Dunmer who actually belonged to that Great House, not just someone who lives in a Great House-controlled area. And I don't remember a lot of actual "culture" in the game. Just Dunmer standing around all day and all night.


Which in itself is an interesting phenomenon. A society that doesn't move unless provoked, patrolling or following some one!

Ashlander culture

The Ashlander culture is an anachronistic survival of the ancestor-worshipping tribal culture that evolved into the theocratic Great House culture of the native Dunmer. The Ashlanders perversely prefer the impoverished physical culture and subsistence economy of the Ashland nomadic herder- hunter, and their ancestor worship is shamanistic and primitive by Dunmer and Imperial standards.

Dunmer Culture

Native Dunmer culture shares common roots with the other Aldmeri races -- the Altmer, or High Elves, and the Bosmer, or Wood Elves. All Aldmeri cultures are ancient, complex, and sophisticated. The native Dunmer have dark grey skin, unlike their cousins. Native Dunmer have strong militaristic and authoritarian traditions, founded in their ancient practices of ancestor worship, and fostered and elaborated in the theocratic religion of the Tribunal Temple.

Foreigners

Most native Dunmer don't like foreigners. The Dunmer are a proud people, and they look down on other races and cultures. They particularly dislike outland Dunmer -- Dark Elves born and raised to Imperial ways, who don't know what it is to be a Dunmer born-and-bred. Foreigners can be accepted in Morrowind, even adopted into the Great Houses. There's even a Nord on the House Hlaalu Council. But it isn't easy. It takes time and effort to win a native's trust.

Great Houses

In modern times Morrowind is ruled by five Great Houses: House Hlaalu, House Redoran, House Telvanni, House Indoril, and House Dres. The Great Houses traditions derive from ancient Dunmer clan and tribes, but now function as political parties. Great Houses culture is partly defined by its roots in ancient Dunmer tribal clans, and partly by later Imperial influences from other Western cultures. Dunmer Great House membership is largely a matter of birth and marriage, but Imperial colonists may also become retainers of a Great House, or may be adopted into a Great House. The clan and family structures of the Dunmer Great House system are strong forces for social and political stability. Three of these Great Houses have territorial interests on Vvardenfell; the other two, Dres and Indoril, are not represented on Vvardenfell. The three Great Houses on Vvardenfell identify themselves by their traditional colors: red for Redoran, yellow for Hlaalu, and brown for Telvanni. Thus, members of House Hlaalu may be referred to collectively as Yellows. The Red Party of Redoran preserves the ancient martial traditions of our ancestors, and deserves our thankful respect. The Yellow Party of Hlaalu honors and serves Fortune, Trade, and the Empire, and through such distractions they stray away from the narrow paths of duty, gravity, and piety. The Brown Party of Telvanni honors great traditions of arcane mastery of our race, and deserve our respect, but they are careless in observance of Temple teaching, and scornful of discipline, doctrine, and obedience. - The Great Houses culture is only one of the native Dunmer cultures of Morrowind. The other native culture, the Ashlander culture, is a nomadic barbarian culture largely untouched by Imperial influences.

House Styles

The three Dunmer Great Houses that have settled Vvardenfell have distinctive architectures and lifestyles. Aristocratic, warlike Great House Redoran favors a spacious, irregular, organic building style. Great House Hlaalu, an aggressive mercantile culture, strongly admiring and influenced by Imperial culture, prefers simpler, more modern, more densely populated settlements, while bizarre wizard towers dominate mushroom-hut villages of the Great House Telvanni sorcerer-lords. A fourth Great House style, the Velothi or Temple style, is evident in the monumental architecture, bridges, buttresses, and grand canols of the ancient religious center of Vivec City.

Cultures

Three major cultural groupings have settled Vvardenfell: the Ashlander nomads, the ? Imperial Provincial culture, and the native ? Dunmer culture -- also sometimes known as the House Dunmer culture, the Dunmer Great House culture or the Dark Elf culture. The smallest settlements are the ? Ashlander nomadic camps, comprised of small portable huts. Recent ? Imperial colonies like ? Pelagiad display the same sturdy half-timbered homes and stone castles as might be found in Daggerfall or any other Western province. But the dominant culture is the native Dunmer Great House culture.



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laila hassan
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:50 am

From what I saw, they just stand around all day, the only differences in dialogue being based on what's going on locally and what's going on in the faction (if they belong to one). Looking back, Oblivion's "culture" isn't as bad as it may first appear.
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Jade Barnes-Mackey
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:51 pm

Like what exactly? The political differences were only in Dunmer who actually belonged to that Great House, not just someone who lives in a Great House-controlled area. And I don't remember a lot of actual "culture" in the game. Just Dunmer standing around all day and all night.

Okay, I get your use of the word now. You're thinking of the contents of cheesy travel guides to quaint tourist areas.

See Proweler's post and the Skeleton Man Interview for some better examples.

Edit: No, you're actually talking about NPCs. Disregard this post and replace it with something snide.
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Jeff Turner
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:18 am

As paw prints already said, I don't recognize your use of the word.
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FABIAN RUIZ
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:51 am

Edit: No, you're actually talking about NPCs. Disregard this post and replace it with something snide.

And you're actually talking about books and dialogue. I don't see much of a difference, they're all things in the game.

As paw prints already said, I don't recognize your use of the word.

If it's any consolation, I don't recognize your use of the word. Very little of the "culture" in Morrowind is actually acted upon in the game.
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R.I.p MOmmy
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:13 pm

So do you prefer Edward Burnett Tylor description of culture as: "Culture or civilization, taken in its wide ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

Or something more modern? Though I believe that for this discussion, this one works best. It provides a short enumeration of elements to discuss and I've already shown that Morrowind has these.
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LittleMiss
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:18 am

So do you prefer Edward Burnett Tylor description of culture as: "Culture or civilization, taken in its wide ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."

Or something more modern? Though I believe that for this discussion, this one works best.

That's not what we had in Morrowind, all we had were some books, generic dialogue, and a few instance of it in action.

And Oblivion still seems relatively fine.
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vanuza
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:09 am

That's not what we had in Morrowind, all we had were some books, generic dialogue, ....


... and culture is contained within.

I've given you examples already so I don't believe you actually know what you are talking about.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:01 am

... and culture is contained within.

I've given you examples already so I don't believe you actually know what you are talking about.

Examples? I didn't see those "examples" carried out in the game. They were simply things said and written, very little of it was applied.
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A Boy called Marilyn
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:54 pm

Examples? I didn't see those "examples" carried out in the game. They were simply things said and written, very little of it was applied.


Well before I put out the effort to dig up examples, (Hlaalu quests and ideals revolving around money and corruption, Redoran quests and ideals involving honor and not so much money, Telvani qeusts and ideals revolving around minding your own business, ancestral tombs, Ashlanders being isolated, being called N'wha, ect), why don't you show me some descriptions and examples of an applied and pervasive Imperial culture in Oblivion?

You don't come of as being interested in any sort of discussion, so far you only provide unfounded claims against anything that suggest Oblivion is not of the same calibre as Morrowind. I'm sure you feel that way but your lack of arguments isn't exactly compelling.

In fact, it would be much easier if you wrote down all your arguments, observations and comparisons in a cohesive argument. That way it's at least clear there is something more behind your arguments than simple rejection.
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kat no x
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 am

This is the [censored] lore forum. What is applied in a video game is off-topic.

Could Crimson Paladin please carry the flag on TES General where it is appropriate?
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Which in itself is an interesting phenomenon. A society that doesn't move unless provoked, patrolling or following some one!

[Et Al]

But wait there is more! If you order now you get a free digital copy of Zephs Treasury! This super awesome document is filled to the brim with details about this special edition.

Order now and call 0000-IMPERIAL-LIBRARY.


I see this forum has only gotten more long-winded in my absence.
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Nick Tyler
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:04 am

I see this forum has only gotten more long-winded in my absence.


It helps if you can just copy paste the content.
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Lucie H
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:48 am

Well before I put out the effort to dig up examples, (Hlaalu quests and ideals revolving around money and corruption, Redoran quests and ideals involving honor and not so much money, Telvani qeusts and ideals revolving around minding your own business, ancestral tombs, Ashlanders being isolated, being called N'wha), why don't you show me some descriptions and applied Imperial culture Oblivion?

Here's some more:
Ashlander Mabrigash witches on the lookout for men and an ashlander who wants an escort to a Mabrigash camp.
Dunmer xenophobia in general, there's basically no place where you're not called N'wah, scum or other nice words except when you really put some effort (or money) in it/people.
There are multiple architectural styles, including the lore and applied construction of Telvanni Towers, also a part of culture.
Multiple actual locations which are mentioned in books, my all-time favourite: Ibar-Dad, the burial place of Mordrin Hanin out of "Hanin's Wake", cultural and historical relevance.
The rivalry between Fighter's and Thieves Guild and between the Telvanni and Mages Guild also represent a political/social struggle.
...and there's a lot more.


Of course, not everything in books and dialogue can be actively represented in the game. A game which would do that would be vast. But a sizeable part of things in Morrowind which can be read/heard about from books and dialogue do have actual events, locations questlines etc. in the game. Oblivion in comparison did not have that in comparable scale.

Edit:
A little bit off the current discussion:
I had fun playing Oblivion, it was a good game. However - (!) - I missed the actual WORLD of the Elder Scrolls that raised my interest and my fascination, where I could feel "at home", the dazzling mystery, the layers of meaning which catered to casual players as well as to those who wanted to dig deeper. Oblivion gave me the feeling of being single-layered and when I tried to dig deeper I either stumbled upon dead (or not sufficiently fleshed out) ends or contradictions.
What I mean to say, looking at the 4 1/2 years I've been here on these forums - if I didn't start with Morrowind, but had only played Oblivion - I'd never have signed up here and would have missed out A HELL LOT OF (MORE) FUN than just by playing the game and a discovering a world beyond my dreams. And I think that's where I really have my quarrel with Oblivion.
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Nicholas C
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:48 am

Well before I put out the effort to dig up examples, (Hlaalu quests and ideals revolving around money and corruption, Redoran quests and ideals involving honor and not so much money, Telvani qeusts and ideals revolving around minding your own business, ancestral tombs, Ashlanders being isolated, being called N'wha, ect), why don't you show me some descriptions and applied Imperial culture Oblivion?

OK, here you go. And I still got more stuff than this.

Chorrol is a mountain town, with hunting as a primary trade, as well where the Champion and Guildmaster of the Fighters Guild are based. The people tend to be somewhat simplistic but hardy and well-familiar with the surroundings

Skingrad involves food, in particular breads, wines, and cheeses, and from the look of it, could be considered a wealthier city. As such it is home to farmers, vintners, herders, bakers, and nobles.

Anvil is a port town, with shipping as its primary industry. The town itself is considered to be beautiful inside the city walls (which is "Hammerfell Style"), and people seem ashamed of the abandoned houses that spoil the effect. The town itself, at least the permenant residents, are relatively friendly, but the sailors at the port aren't always as pleasant.

Bravil is located near a river and seems to be much less wealthy than the other towns, as evidenced by a lack of a defining industry and the simple architecture of the buildings. It is considered to be "culturally, a hole".

Leyawiin is a blend of Khajiit, Argonian, and Imperial cultures, with some struggle on the Imperials' part to establish itself more. The town has quite a few of the beast races, although they make up the more impoverished population. The county is plagued with banditry, which largely explains the Imperials' dislike of Khajiit influence on the town. Even the Khajiit and Argonians don't get along very well.

Cheydinhal is similar but with less social headbutting. The Dunmer are usually those who left Morrowind to get away from their religion, and thus don't have much. The other inhabitants of Cheydinhal are Imperials. Understandably, there is some tension between the Dunmer and Imperials regarding religion. Nonetheless, there is some connection with Morrowind, as the Duke is an associate of Helseth and the Orum Gang are in business with the Camonna Tong.

The Imperial City is the center of it all, with a diverse population. The architecture of the Imperial City seems to be Ayleid with Imperial influence. The Imperial City is considered "the big city" for better or worse, and its primary industries are trade and the Arena.
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maddison
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:23 am

Problem is, most of that goes without saying. The only non-obvious, non-common knowledge, non-eerily-familiar, significant detail is the way Cheydinhal interacts with... you guessed it... Morrowind.

You got some of it from loading screens, and made up some of it. (Anvil's people are 'friendly?' And it doesn't have any warehouses, so I don't know how it can ship anything. Chorrol NPCs are simplistic? I'm not taking their word for it.)

None of it says much at all about the Imperials, it's just a few fun facts about their towns. We use similar details in describing MW, but the point you seem to have missed is that those characteristics actually described and informed a greater heritage and identity which was developed by the game. Your post is also exclusively based on the game and gameplay details, and doesn't touch any... lore.

With a few words switched around, your post describes the settlements in Fable and World of Warcraft just as well.
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Natalie Taylor
 
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Post » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:52 am

For each town you describe a source of income, a level of wealth and influence from another province. This might seem allot when you do it nine times over but these only are the most basic elements. This isn't the Imperial culture or a culture at all. Nowhere is there such a thing as a Anvilian or Brumerian outside of Anvil or Bruma.

That each of the towns identifies more with it's closest neighbouring province then anything else while the people themselves could live anywhere without standing out shows there is no distinct Imperial culture. It's striking that the Imperial City, Heart of the Empire is painted as "The big city" while the people don't do or think anything different from their supposedly "hill billy" counter parts.

From the definition, culture is the knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society. How is this society structured. What do the Imperials believe in? How does that influence their customs and morals? Who educates them and what do they think of this? What is the influence of a professional army on the people?

The answers? There are none, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_ancient_Rome, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Byzantine_culture with a bit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_South_America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digenis_Acritas
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P PoLlo
 
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