You keep talking about the most basic and obvious aspects of the cities, yet you don't bring up any example of the Imperial culture or a deeper relation of these cities with the world they are in or how Imperial culture influences the world. Are you just going to regurgitate your talking points or actually offer a rebuttal?



Again, these clashing are shallow and stereotypical and they are everything contrary to an Imperial culture. Nibenans Brumerians don't like drunken Nords. Wow. Who doesn't? Nibenians Cheydenhal Imperials are pious, Cheydenhal Dunmer aren't, along with the rest of the Cyrodiil. Nibenians Leyawiinites Alessia Caro is racist against Argonians. Colovians Skingradians hunt goblins, nobody else cares. Colovians Anvilliagers Redgaurds are laid back.

That I can sum these up these contrast in one line without having to nuance, shows how shallow this "culture" is. What ever you see in this design pattern of eight towns with eight different architectural styles, influenced by eight provinces, with eight conflicts based on one of the eight other races, a chapel dedicated to one of the eight gods, with one of the eight guild residences, it is not good or interesting.

It's repetitive, predictable and boring.

Who was it that said, on this very board, that they'd turned what was supposed to be Byzantium in the Amazon into Middle Earth with furries? That's the best way I've seen the conundrum of Oblivion's lorelessness put.

All I know is that the Emperor went from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuj3uARuPWU before Oblivion to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6oUz1v17Uo afterward -- that's all that matters.

Not a slur against the venerable Patrick Stewart, but rather against the quality of the characterization.

And Redoran is honorable, Hlaalu likes money, and Telvanni likes being left alone.

Just because it isn't bizarre doesn't make it less of a "culture". Such things only help people recognize it more easily.

Oh, and the whole "pious" angle shows in Bruma as well.


And in my opinion, they are good and interesting, and not repetitive, predictable, or boring.


Not until you give me a "real" rebuttal for Morrowind, because by this standard, I haven't gotten one.

Edit: Added something in. I think your last post has an error in the coding in the first part, Prow.

Not surprised about the way Cyrodiil was portrayed - the essence of what the Empire became in Morrowind is that on the surface it 'earth-normaled' stuff in contrast to the dunmer (and their regions, cities etc) who were the strangeness. Another reason why I saw Cyrodiil as a poor choice for that release. and because they went for 'special effects' rather than 'art' there ended up with less room for and less pressure to include a widely varied society and landscape. and there was little depth to th eImperial Capital - no embassies etc. Did anyone see the Imperial Commission of Works Building? Decumus Scottii where are you?

Apparently someone thought Oblivion itself would provide that strangeness and too they wanted to consolise it ... they had to be aware of what the censors were up to so I suspect there was some effort to 'downgrade strangeness' on that account - guess it did not work out. lol

If you must put one word on it, Redoran is better described as conservative. Honor is only part of this. The result of this attitude is however is that Redoran loses most bids for Imperial contracts to Hlaalu and this marginalizes their influence. This process traces back to the Settlement of Vvardenfell when Redoran was under heavy pressure from the Temple to abstain from colonisation. The problem is made worse by the encroaching Telvani and a corrupt Grand Master.

Compared to Redoran, House Hlaalu is more progressive. This shows in the way the aggressively colonized Vvardenfell along with the Empire. As such you'll find Imperial towns like Pelalgiad and Seyada Neen on Hlaalu territory. This good cooperation greatly benefite Hlaalu but they're also still Dunmer as follow the traditions of ancestor worship and the Tribunal.

Telvani believes that powerful define the standards of virtue. They do not want to be left alone, but rather the Mage lords will defy any one who tries to impose their standards upon them. As a result the commoners are somewhat fazed and unwilling to accept strangers easily.

And how about Some. More. More Nuance?

Now that I've shown that the attitudes of Great Houses go much deeper then the eight cities of Oblivion, you can not argue that they are of the same quality.



Again you confuse the argument. When making a fantasy world it is important to pay attention to detail and structure. This is what makes the world good. It doesn't matter if the game is set in a strange place or Bethesda's backyard, without attention to detail and structure it will end up being shallow.



Then your opinion doesn't seem to be based on anything at all. Or rather the arguments you bring up don't actually relate to why you like it. As such I get the impression that this isn't your opinion as much as it is your conviction. Even more so as you seem to be unable to tolerate any negative opinions of Oblivion and counter this criticism typically by comparing it to Morrowind.

From this I would speculate that you are not actually very interested in the lore but rather prefer Oblivions improved gameplay. Which is cool. But while you are here, you do not get to hide behind your opinion when call others on theirs.

OK, now you're just doing the same thing for the Great Houses that I do for Cyrodiil's cities. Belonging to a Great House is not the same as living in a city. I didn't see any of those things in the non-house Dunmer, many of whom lived in Great House areas. The wasn't any real difference between the non-Faction inhabitants of cities, aside from local goings-on. And even then, Cyrodiil's politics are not like Morrowind's politics; the province isn't constantly at war with itself.

If you're going to argue about factions, Cyrodiil doesn't have the same politics as Morrowind does, it's a much more united province. If you're going to get into factional politics, I'll play along. The Fighters Guild values strength and brotherhood, and when some are either making the rest of them look bad, or if they're defaulting on a contract, they send someone to help them out. Similarly to House Redoran, it's been struggling business-wise because a less law-abiding group has been stealing business. In addition, it is accepted that the rank of Guildmaster, at least for the time, is inherited.

The Mages Guild is about learning and the advancement of magic. The guild-halls themselves often have degrees of School specialization, and each one is a bit different. Like the Fighters Guild, helping out one another is very important. The guild has been having problems due to the recent changes brought about by Arch-Mage Traven. Many people left the Guild, and the Necromancers have began to cause trouble with them.

Of course, this isn't the same degree of house politics, but as I said before, Cyrodiil isn't as divided as Morrowind.


I saw sufficient detail in Oblivion. What it lacked in actual dialogue it made up for in NPC schedules. As opposed to just standing in the same spot for the entire game.



No, you just don't see what it is based on. I base my arguements on facts, not opinions, even if I do give my opinion. And I get the impression that you seem to be unable to tolerate any negative opinions of Morrowind or any positive opinions of Oblivion.

And I have as much right to an opinion as you do.

Try the argument another way Crimson. Either Oblivion is a bit more subtle in the way it differentiates various groups or it is more banol - could be either depending on your taste :shrug: but one thing is clear: as the center of Empire there ought to be far more going on. Tell me, where was the HQ of the East Empire company? what about the North, West or South Empire companies or their equivalent?

Where was the Naval Docks?

Where were the Embassies of the various Kings/kingdoms?

Where were the Imperial Foundaries?

Where were the headquarters of the Civil Service?

Do you see what I am getting at?

All the aspects of Imperial might and commerce that we have already met overseas and more ought to be represented. That is what Empire is really about ... where was it all?

So it is fair to say that there is where you would have found the real Imperial intrigues and power bases, but there do not seem to have been any. so what is left? The entirely parochial? Parochial is not Empire, although an empire is just as much about the small businesses and the educational system for skills that feeds them they play a subserviant role to something monumental. What you actually had was a poor man's Colliseum and Appian Way etc, but little more than you migh tactually expect from a small but wealthy country.

It was acceptable in Morrowind, but fell short for Cyrodiil by comparison. Though if Ob was the first ES you played you might not have minded for people who played previous ES games it was not enough, expecially as so much was taken out of Oblivion just before release.

Out there finding new sources of wealth or dominating trade in foreign areas.


Anvil and the Imperial City Waterfront. But really, there isn't much of a call for any naval presence in either area, especially with all the things happening elsewhere in the Empire.


They probably figured that there wasn't much need. Morrowind only had the embassies from provinces that it had significant (and often violent) tension with; Skyrim and the Black Marsh. And the Empire holds sovereignty over all of the provinces, there isn't a need for diplomatic missions from provinces to the Empire.


It appears that Imperial Guard armor is made within the Imperial Prison complex. Hence why the Imperial Dragon armor appears there.


The Imperial Palace.


In Cyrodiil, the tax collecting seems to be the duty of the guards. The Office of Commerce is in the Imperial City. As for power bases, they would be the members of the Elder Council and the city Counts. However, any intrigue has seemingly been put on hold, given the danger from the Oblivion Gates. Not to mention that the whole Oblivion Crisis would also make it harder for someone to claim the throne when someone would have to wear the Amulet of Kings before they could even be considered by the Elder Council.


I played Morrowind first. Even after TES IV came out, I had to wait before I had a computer that could handle it.

they have to have headquarters somewhere


anvil has two ships, as does the IC. all are civilian. Leyawin and Bravil, which sit on the water, have no naval presence what so ever.

... wow. embassies are needed regardless of diplomatic allegiance. being that the provinces often fight within themselves and with the empire actual it makes sense for them to have embassies in cyrodiil in order to meet on neutral ground and to be near the center of the government that controls them. it would be convenient for the government of the empire to keep tabs on the governments of the other provinces as well.


there is nothing to support this assumption. besides, armor made in prison?

... is a single large council chamber, a basemant, and a hidden off-limits library. no civil service buildings, no government of any kind actually, unless you cound Ocato.


Cities do not qualify as cultures. do the inhabitants of Washington D.C. have a different culture from those of Baltimore or Philadephia? No, not really. Can democrats have a different 'culture' from republicans though? yes. not obviously, but yes. Architecture was the only real difference in the Oblivion cities. lets say that Summurset succeeded from the empire all of a sudden. how would the reaction of a Anvil (colovian) resident vary from that of a Bravil (Nibenese) resident? I really dont know, no information was given to us about the values, persuasions, histories, beliefs, etc. of the modern Cyrodiil population. I could however extrapolate a reaction of a resident of Port Telvanis (telvani) or of Balmora (hlaalu), because we were given enough info about what sets them appart from each other and what makes them tick.

for clarification, i enjoyed both oblivion and morrowind, and am willing to take critisism on both. i just find that your points are based mostly on your imagination and on unsuportred conjecture rather than actual in game facts.

You were the one who compared them in the first place:



Still as a rebuttal: The difference is that in addition to their shared history, I've shown some of the knowledge, beliefs, morals and customs of Great Houses in Morrowind. I even provided nuance and sources to show that there was more behind them then a simple caricature. Since you've only described the most obvious caricature like aspects of the cities, you have not done the same.



Of course not. As said before: the Dunmer are first and foremost Dunmer. Still the difference between faction mentalities definitely shows when doing the faction quests and reading their history. However a better comparison would be between the Dunmer and the Ashlanders, something you can certainly tell the difference between.

That we can not do the same with people from Bruma and Skingrad means that there is no strong cultural difference between the cities. That we don't know anything other then the most basic characteristics of the inhabitant of eight separate cities also shows there is no fleshed out Imperial Culture in Oblivion.



You are aware the dialogue has not been part of this discussion and that schedules aren't the sort of detail we are talking about. Looking back at your posting history you frequently seem to mistake game mechanics for lore, and being corrected on it, so I reckon you are.



If you mean by being unable to tolerate any negative opinions of Morrowind, providing nuances to your examples from Morrowind then yes. The only reason I can see for you to bring Morrowind into it is because you want to show that the Elderscrolls never did something I claim Oblivion is lacking. It's only fair for me to show that they did.

Now I've already stated what I find lacking in Oblivion. Show me an example of Imperial culture as defined by "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society" and where these elements interact with the world at large outside the 8-by-8 design pattern of Oblivion and I will be convinced.

So far you've only shown me examples of the isolation and shallow nature of Oblivions design and made the argument that none of the Elderscrolls games have anything else. So perhaps if I'm unable to see the base of your arguments, might it be because it isn't there?

Finally I'd like provide you with a valid example of Imperial culture : http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/cyrodiil.shtml, this is also where my personal preferences lie when it comes to the vision of Cyrodiil. Perhaps you should conclude that I can't stand any critique on Redgaurd.

No need, Cyrodiil controls the rest of Tamriel, who would they be defending against? Then again, I've never any navy in Morrowind either. But if there is one out there, it'd stationed where it'd be needed, not in the center of the Empire's power.


Skyrim, Morrowind, and the Black Marsh have no sovereignty over one another, therefore diplomatic missions to each other is important. Cyrodiil, however, controls all the provinces, and therefore has much less need for diplomacy with it's own territories. If provinces want to talk, it's done in the Elder Council chambers or in the actual provinces with representatives from Cyrodiil.


The prison complex houses a legion garrison and their commander, and they have an armory there.


Civil service? If you're working for the government, you either are answering to your commanding officer, your town's count, or whoever's in charge at the Palace.


But the populations of the regions with the cities qualify as cultures. And as I remember, commoners in the Morrowind cities didn't differ from place to place either. And as I said before, Cyrodiil is not as divided as Morrowind is.

that was a long post, on some stuff i have to agree and disagree, the first 2 paragraghs i din't even get, maybe i took a few more swings to the head by a baseball bat when i was i high school, thats not the point, someone please explain to me what she means by writing that much, but try to put it in few paragraghs, or words?

and someone explain what those quote paragraphs mean...

hm, lets see.... Yokuda, Akavir, Pydonea, Hammerfell, Skyrim, Summurset, Morrowind, Elsweyr... the list goes on. i take it youve forgotten the fact that there are other lands on Nirn and that the provinces dont get along with each other (National government typically fixes state problems) and that the provinces dont get along with the empire? times being what they are (oblivion invasion and all that) i would say that the military is very much needed in cyrodiil. the only sign we have of a legion are those heavy armored dudes who are basically just another form of city guards.


youre contradicting yourself. your posts so far have claimed that the cities are cultures within themselves and that this proves that oblivion is deep, and here you go on to say that cyrodiil is homogeneous?


Cyrodiil controls the provinces, and therefore have more need for diplomacy than to individual states. do you think that cyrodiil just conquered and went back to cyrodiil while the provinces happily submit to their rule? cyrodiil has to struggle to keep the provinces happy with the empire and with each other, just like any other government. there has to be place for the bureaucracy of government, whether in the form of embassies or not. there is next to none of this in the IC.

Sir Adam: were arguing over whether oblivion had deep lore or not. the quotes are from our respective arguments. this is hardly a complex, or long, thread, and will not benefit your knowledge of lore in the slightest

Empires and colonial powers typically shipped of the export products from their subject states and colonies to their own capitals, this is how they make a return on their investments. Please go read a history book.

It's not a "caricature", it's simply more subtle. And as I've said before, those are opposing political groups in Morrowind, they'll have the most distinctive beliefs, morals, and customs compared to others. Cyrodiil doesn't have political groups like Great Houses, it'll be more like the vast number of Dunmer who don't belong to any Great House. Culture isn't just politics.


No strong cultural differences, no, Cyrodiil doesn't have the same cultural differences in it because it hasn't been constantly been warring with itself. Culture, yes, it's just more difficult to distinguish because it's not too different. It's a lot deeper that it first looks when you look at it from a foreign perspective.


Not having a long list of short monologues on everything that one knows about due to the limitations of voice acting is no less mechanical than standing around doing nothing all day and night.



Nothing I could possibly say would convince you. Nothing in Morrowind outside of joinable factions got that deep, those only account for a fraction of everyone on Morrowind. And so far all you've given me is politics in Morrowind for a fraction of its inhabitants, the only real "depth" was the contrast between them. You can't compare factional politics to regional cultures. After all, quite a few people in Ald-Ruhn weren't Redorans. And as I said before, Cyrodiil doesn't have the same political clashing as in Morrowind.


It's still got culture. They still got ways that they live by, they're just not as different from what we're used to. Hence it looks like they don't have one. But really, I never remembered actual regional cultures in Morrowind to be very deep either.

Sorry Crimson - I like a lot of what you have tried to say generally, but accepting that Cyrodiil is not ancient Rome what is there is in Oblivion is not adequate to properly convey the nature of an Empire that has lasted hundreds, let alone thousands of years. and that is what this is really about.

Empires accrete certain things like fleas on a dog or ... well you can supply the phrase because I'm sure you know what I am talking about.

Rome fell because of a breakdown in the massive system that it used to handle the even more massive trade needed to support it. But it also achieved Drainage

The Brit Empire fell through atomic threat and the excuse was that there was no way to protect supply lines adequately. But what it did achieve was education -

The nature of Empire is diplomacy. Without that there is no genuine Empire. All else are tools adequate or inadequate to support that. But no tools = no diplomacy - and you need the tools that support the tools etc too ... and all focussed on diplomacy.

The previous couple of ES efforts were ok in that they were just about small kingdoms/factions within a kingdom - but even that was out of the window in Ob.

The IS an Imperial Navy and th eInland sea is where it ought to have its Naval Bases, Foundaries and shipyards ... there were not even any ruins. That is just one detail that was missing. What I feel is that when you create a game you have to make a snapshot of the society that you portray. That was not done in Oblivion and left everyone off-balance, even you or you would not be so keen to defend it. Initially it was attempted, but other considerations took over, even game balance went out the window along with any organised attempt to clearly portray the nature of what Cyrodiil had to be in order to put people in the picture. In the end what was left was a patchwork with bits and pieces of various things that did not really hang together.

gtg,

take care,
1999

I've just told you exactly what would convince me. You however keep shifting your argument around the same set of premises and right now we are back at something that sounds very similar to the argument that Oblivion isn't quite as weird. Now I do not feel like starting back at the start again, and since you don't believe I can be convinced, I don't see any reason to continue this. It's clear that I don't have to expect any deep insights about Oblivion from you.

Cyrodiil wouldn't have embassies from its territories, if anything they'd have representation. But it's not a democracy, therefore they may not even give representation to its provinces. Instead, problems with provinces may be worked either by the Elder Council, or if it's smaller, by an Imperial representative. Provinces have the embassies to help ease tensions; after all, Skyrim has been invading Morrowind and Morrowind has been raiding Black Marsh since before the Empire, and the Legions apparently don't have the manpower to keep them off of each other. Hence diplomacy.


No, let me explain. Cyrodiil's regions have some cultural differences, although the actual contrast is not that deep, not compared to Morrowind's Great Houses at least. However, it doesn't detract from it because there are other frames of references that show what their cultures are like. Depth and internal contrast are not the same thing.

Problem with cyrodill is, that it doesent seems like an empire as i thought it would. All the cities architecture is copied from the other provinces. Anvil - hammerfell, Bruma - Skyrim, Chorrol - Highrock. But where is the cyrodill architecture? I imagined more cities thi the architecture like Imperial City. It is the only city wich seems big, all the other feels like villages.

And the npcs, maybe the biggest problem in the game. There is absorlutely no way to tell one person from another. Mages wear civil clothes, and not wizart outfit. Fighters guild doesent even have their own armor, but seems like they bought it from the local smith. Also, a problem with the people is, that there ar too many forigners. Dont get me wrong, I like to meet a khajiit once in a while, but not in EVERY CITY. How did an argonian end up in the colovia? there is simply not enough water sources for an argonian to live there, and the sun would bee to hot. Their skin would become too dry and they would properbly dehydrate.

Sometimes I feel like the whole game was randomly generated.

Note the Imperial Embassy in Mournhold - it is not like the Imperials did not know what an embassy is. And in Ebonheart there were the Legations from other 'Provinces'. Ebonheart is not a Dunmer city - it is totally Imperial.

So it makes sense to you that the Provinces set up legations in a small Imperial Provincial city, but did not bother with anything similar in the Imperial Capital? This is not commonsense.

You do not have to call them EWmbassies if you do not want, but there should have been serious formal representation by all major factions from all Provinces in the Imperial capital all vying for power and spying and trying to get oe up on the local Imperial representative etc. You say that all that would have been forgotten with the Gates Crisis? Fine, then they should have all been begging the Imperials for assistance where Gates had opened in their Provinces. There should have been absolute chaos ... but there was nothing. This was not because of th eLore, this was because of the lack of Lore.

Think about it please. Where is the Lore for Factions in Skyrim, Valenwood, Blackmarsh and Elsweyr? There is some, but nowhere near enough to fill the Imperial Capital with Folks from all over the Empire. The attempt to portray Cyrodiil was premature - and therfore failed for anyone who has played ES. That is why Todd was so unhappy with Lore in his statement. He had been presented with an unfortunate target that should not have been considered.

The first need was for the release of games covering each individual Province. That might have been achieved in three releases - one a Borderwar between Valenwood and Elsweyr along with the Rise of the Precursor, a Black Marsh/Argonia game exporing the nature of the Hist and their Secret Empire and the anticipated Skyrim release. As it is we have a sad waste of one of th egame's most valuable resources - and Lore is a powerful resource if handled properly.

Interesting, my expectations were mostly the opposite. I would expect an empire to be an amalgamation of other cultures. People from other provinces congregating in Cyrodiil, bringing their architecture and culture with them (admittedly there wasn't a lot of the latter). The only properly Cyrodiilic architecture (if there is such a thing) would be left-over from the Aylieds.



Quoting Ocato from the main quest, on problems in other Provinces:

"This is terrible news. Under normal circumstances, I would dispatch a legion or two to Bruma immediately. But the circumstances are not normal, are they? I've been pleading for troops for Cyrodiil for weeks, but the generals assure me that the entire Imperial Army is already fully committed. Besides... I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces. I'm sorry, but the cities of Cyrodiil will have to fend for themselves for the time being...Don't worry. The Elder Council can govern the Empire perfectly well until a new heir can be found. Truth be told, most of the Council has returned to the provinces to deal with urgent local matters, but we are in regular communication. But the Inner Council still holds regular meetings. We have the situation well in hand, I assure you."

Not saying that should completely satisfy you, but the issue wasn't left entirely unaddressed.

That wasn't an embassy, it was just a small Legion presence and some Imperial Cult services.


Not every Empire gives representation to its territories. Look at the British Empire and their 13 North American colonies, and the whole outrage that arose from not giving them real representation. And as I said before, the whole Oblivion Crisis really raised the bar for becoming emperor. And finally, as Ocato said, the Legions were too busy in the provinces to help Bruma.

I won't deny that Oblivion has less "lore" than Morrowind, but I do believe that the problems are vastly overexaggerated.

:rofl: Dunbkid, that's fair enough as a measure of Occato's general incompetance. Without the HERO there would have been no Cyrodiil left in case the idiot generals changed their minds. Did Occato receive reports from his local legions about their victories too?

Crimson
The Empire has been in power for how many hundreds/thousand of years? How long ago was the Battle of Red Mountain? Not a few 10s of years perched precariously on the edge of a vast and largely unexplored continent with the territories of major and hostile nations perched on its borders. And please note that England had begun its colonial expansion in response to Spanish expansion in the Carribbean and South America and its stated intention to use those resources to create a Holy Roman Empire. The racial composition of those colonies was not purely British and the process of absorbing members of former French and Spanish colonies was not complete.

It was not just European nations to be considered. The Gatherings at Indian Nations of the Great Plains Tribes were in the millions - or was it tens of millions? We all know how well they were represented in the US later on - I guess that wasn't a "whole outrage that arose from not giving them real representation" ... Had they decided to go to war as soon as they realised that the white men were fighting among themselves or later encroaching on their territories your 14 colonies would have ceased to exist in their entirety and the First People would not have sucummed to the genocide that your benificent rebels visited upon them.

This is not to say that the American rebels did not have a point - just that there were 2 sides to the questions. The American revolution was facing a corrupt government supporting a very sick monarch who would have passed on soon enough - and rule in the American Colonies was not overly harsh by the standards of the time. So what was really going on?

Re Oblivion I can only imagine that Occato is your very best friend. Some other people here on the forums see him as a likely enemy of the Empire. I also wonder if he had senile dementia given the statement from Dumbkid.

Try this scenario Crimson:
The President has just been assassinated.

Hey guys the Japanese just attacked Pearl Harbour, please sent reinforcements! Vice President's Response: Err, well, my generals tell me that the 4th 5th and 6th armies are too busy on a training exercise in Texas - there is a suspicion that the Mexicans are going to retake the Alamo and Davy Crockett is busy teaching little boys and girls in the Appalations how to pick their noses. and the Navy is in South America to ensure the South American Indians do not rise up and spoil the bean harvest.

Hey guys, the Japs have landed 40 divisions in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. The local military forces are all dead and no one is opposing them. Vice President's Response: Err, well, my generals tell me that the troops have to keep an eye on Cuba. It seems that some of the locals object to having their fields turned into tobacco plantations and they might form an army, rebel and take over the Island- then where wouold we buy our cigars from? Besides the Chiefs of staff are having a soiree this evening and my wife has a new dress she wants to show off.

Hey guys, there are hundreds of paratroop landings of German and Japanese paratroopers all over the States and the Germans just Blitzcrieged New York. Can you reassign troops to these locations from Singapore, South America, and the Alamo? Vice President's Response: Look you are getting really annoying. Didn't I just tell you we have it all under control. We just sent a guy who single-handedly took on a Jap patrol and killed them to a man to take care of it. The Japs and Germans don't stand a chance!

... and that is not including a total lack of news about the Legions actually facing Daedra in other parts of the Empire. I'm not surprised that people wonder if Occato was an Ayelied ... he sure did just about everything that could have been done not to face the Daedra. Basically if that had happened anywhere in this world the country in question would either have capitulated to the enemy or rebelled against it's government. Look at China & Japan - where there is no true or adequate response to the invasion of a major nation the people rebel. Same with the Russian Revolution - though there were other factors involved there, like the weather and starvation.

My 2 pennyworth

The current Empire has been in power for about four hundred years. Not giving representation to it's territories doesn't exactly strike me as abnormal.

As for what was going on in the Empire, the Legions were busy in the other provinces, and as I remember, only one city was destroyed.

And for the Daedra, they weren't actively invading, hence why the cities weren't attacked when the Mythic Dawn started to open the gates near all the cities. Kvatch and Bruma were exceptions because they were done with a specific purpose; to destroy Martin, thus preventing the invasion from being thwarted. But for the most part, it seemed more like the Mythic Dawn and the Daedra were simply gaining a foothold in preparation for Mehrunes Dagon's arrival. Then the real invasion would begin.