Yeah I think "only cares about Cyrodiil and the Imperial City" is the biggest. That is how they lost Markarth to begin with- by pulling troops out of the Reach to send them to the IC- and that mirrors what they did to Hammerfell. The fact that they then used Ulfric to get the Reach back and turned on him afterward shows that they're both cowardly and completely self-absorbed.

It's just like the Stormcloak soldiers say- "damn faithless imperials."

I should just cosign all your posts. I've also learned some lore background I didn't know from reading them. :foodndrink:

The only side I hate is the plurality of forum posters equating nativism with racism. They're not the same thing. Ask a Native American how they feel about their homeland being swamped with a tidal wave of Europeans, then call them a racist to their face. See what happens.

As the standard invincible protagonist of Elder Scrolls games, I'd quite like to have all essential tags removed from the game, so I could go about eradicating all traces of both sides from the continent.

The Thalmors svck... That I know. I'm also a Khajit who doesn't really have a dog in this fight.

The people of Elsweyr have long lived near the Imperials of Cyrodil, and they have always been decent to us. So far all I have gotten from the Nords is grief. I do not like the way they treat my kind, refusing to allow us into the cities, and I have also seen how they treat the other beastmen like my Argonian brethren whom they treat as slaves in Ulfric's own city. When I personally met with Ulfric, the guy was a major a-hole. He's a religious nut who started this entire thing over being told he was not allowed to worship a man as his god. Kin Torygg probably had good reasons for working with the Empire instead of against it. Instead Ulfric the Talos thumper starts attacking his own cities and his own people in the name of Talos.

Both sides seem to be unhealthily involved with the Thalmor and the Dominion - Whom I see as the real threat.

While the Imperials seem to be weak and under the thrall of the Atlmeri, both the Altmeri and Nords have one thing in common... An inherent belief in the superiority of their own race. Even to the point where the Altmeri treat the Bosmer and Dunmer like dirt, while the Nords treat their fellow humans poorly with their campaign against the Breton forsworn. The Imperials seem to be the only ones who can and will remain tolerant of the beastmen should they gain back the power they once had. No Imperial ever waltzed around Leywiin screaming about Cyrodil for the Imperials.... Our presence was not only accepted but welcome.

Should the Nords win their independence, will they rise against the Dominion? If Elsweyr is attacked will they come to our aid? Or will they stay hidden away in their hovels while the Altmeri take over the rest of Tamriel?

The empire is in a bad state right now, but in the long run, a strong Empire is better than a strong Stormcloak/Nord government. I'm not even sure that the Stormcloaks are good for their fellow Nords, and they certainly are not the best option for anyone who isn't a Nord. Their Jarls are just as corrupt and lazy as their Empire counterparts. They care only for their own fair haired and blue eyed race and shun all others. They claim the reach as their own even thought it was Breton land long before the Nords ever laid foot on it. In fact the Nords are invaders in Skyrim, which is what the whole "Night of Tears" was about.

The Empire didn't bring the war to Skyrim, the Stormcloaks started a war with the Empire.

So, you can side with a racist nut involved in a holy war, or you can side with the only people trying to make peace and sense in this big crazy world. Ulfric's plan to split away from the empire can only have one result, and that is a weaker empire and a weaker Skyrim that can easily be conquered by the Altmeri at their leisure. The best thing is a unified Empire NOT run by a Talos freak who rules by the sword.

Oh wow this is so wrong...so very wrong. It's like you haven't read anything. Lets get started.



Yeah those imperials let us int...oh wait even the imperial cities don't let them in either. It could be because they're allied with the dominion, but eh, it's better just to call them all racist.



Yeah, they just tortured the local argonians. Nothing wrong with that. The empire only rose to power through deceit and treachery, but I prefer to look at things through the rose colored glasses of exactly the time of the Oblivion crisis. And how dare Ulfric attack the Forsworn. All they do is murder innocent civilians for daedra worship, sell their very wills to witches, and attack anyone who isn't Forsworn. Even the bretons from high rock hate those poor misunderstood rascals.


Yep, Ulfric's already preparing attack forces for summerset by the end of the war. Not sure why the Nords would be helping out Elsweyr when they're allied with the Dominion.



In the long run, letting the empire that ignored its provinces die and building a new one on the ashes of the old is better than a crumbling empire leading to the downfall of everyone.



Yeah except in TES Gods are real and very much tend to involve themselves in the affairs of mortals. And since Talos is the one trying to make sure the world doesn't end, fighting to keep worship of him is a pretty good cause.

:violin:

I asked native for tobacco reparations at university (which they don't even have pay to attend, thanks to our tax dollars) when he got on a tirade about how we need to do more for them and we owe them... he didn't like it but his reaction and subsequent tirade was funny as hell.

The empire and the stormcloaks are both bad. Sometime you have to choose the lesser of two evils....though I would want to set myself up as a benevolent dictator in Skyrim and be acknowledged the reincarnation of Talos. But do the Thalmor irk me, I was in Markarth talking to this Thalmor called Ondolemar and he pissed me so off that I grabbed my Zwei-hander and lopped his head off and promptly got stopped by the guards. To my suprise I only had to pay 40 gold in fine and got released.....so I headed back and killed his two friends as well. I have 180.000 gold and nothing to spend it on.........could as well pay some fines. With all my gold I could probably rid Skyrim of the Thalmori

My feelings towards each of the groups are actually the complete opposite to what I expected them to be.

Like most people I got svcked into the Stormcloak cause and joined as soon as I could. I suppose everyone enjoys a rebellion. As the questline progressed however, it became clear that Ulfric's motives for rebellion were much more personal than they first seemed. My interpretation was that his sole interest was to become High King of Skyrim, and if he could get people to actually believe this was a good idea then it was merely a bonus.

The Empire... Yes they did try to execute you, but in their defence, you were on the back of a prisoner carriage - along with a thief and a bunch of Stormcloaks rebels. In that kind of situation, it is unlikely you have ended up on that carriage by chance. I can sympathise with the Empire in Skyrim to an extent. Their resources are already pretty stretched, and they are being stretched even further by an egotistic, selfish rebel.

At the end of the day, the Empire are the law. Their connections with the Thalmor are irrelevant in that respect. They are the 'police' of Skyrim who - although it may not always appear so - have Skyrim's best interests at heart.

Welcome to life during war.

I just don't even know what to do with such a statement. I guess it accords with the patronization of the imperial attitude toward their provinces, but it's so odious. Besides being untrue. Did the empire have Hammerfell's best interests at heart when they wanted to abandon them to the Thalmor in order to save the Imperial City? They would have done so, but for one general who had some common sense and larger feeling. And this is how they have treated all their other provinces, too. Why should Cyrodiil be the parents of Skyrim, when they have shown themselves to be such terrible and untrustworthy leaders?

People who bemoan the misfortune of Native Americans (who got their land in the first place by taking it from people who were weaker than themselves) are uneducated. The Native Americans were, for the most part, nomadic and warlike groups that had almost no concept of land ownership. They took what they needed and left when the food ran out (except for the occasional tribe that could grow enough food to sustain itself). I'm not saying they didn't end up with a bad deal. What I am saying is that there is way too much white guilt going on.
If you really want a group to feel bad for, take a look at the Irish. Historically, they have had approx. 3 days of independence from the British. Even now the English occupy Northern Ireland and it's unlikely that they will surrender their holdings any time soon.

Racism is "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race." Hitler was a racist. The Hutu/Tutsi conflict was based in racism. 'Nativism', or xenophobia (an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners), is a derivative of racism and is still generally frowned upon in most civilized and developed nations. That's why we have such a problem with the Stormcloaks. Our society says that we need to accept everyone because we're all equal, which, beyond a certain point, is a ridiculous statement (i.e. we should all have equal rights and opportunities, but we don't have equal abilities). Fortunately, we have never had to deal with a creature as similar to our own species as the elves are, so the exact classification of the prejudice in practice is really not knowable. What is known, however, is that the Nords are prejudiced. What is also known, is that their society has not reached a place that we can judge their behavior by our current standards.

Basically, what it all comes down to is this: yes, both of these groups have undesirable traits at their core, but both of these groups have reasons to feel the way that they do. It's definitely a 'lesser of two evils' thing. The reason we don't like them is because Skyrim really is a whole different world with different values and priorities. Our morals cannot be fairly applied to this situation, which is why so many people are unable to choose a 'right' side, and to be honest, there really isn't one.

You gotta think about from your characters view point. I'm an Orc so I went with the Imperial Legion because of the fact that they're brutes (like Orcs) and they don't hate my kind where they come from. So basically, unless you're a Nord, join the Legion.

i am a born pacifist. Peace or avoiding the whole war was the only option for me.

Neither side is 100% good or bad, but the Empire definitely has more redeeming qualities.

Simply because the Empire are acting almost like a shield for Skyrim, defending them from the Aldmeri Dominion. The Stormcloaks are not powerful enough to defend Skyrim were the Thalmor to suddenly come knocking. Yes, the Empire may be the 'puppet' of the Thalmor in Skyrim, but they are also preventing Skyrim from being totally and utterly conquered. They are of course not without their flaws, but politically, they are trying to give Skyrim as good a deal as the circumstances will allow.

I first did enough quests on both sides (different toons of course) to see what each was like. They both svck HUGE rocks through little tiny straws. So I'm not playing their petty little civil war game. Period.

And in fact, I REALLY dislike "war" crap in my games to begin with, so I'm just not ever going there again.

Actually, an independent Skyrim has the potential of putting the Thalmor and Dominion in a real pinch, because they can't simply stroll over and beat them into submission. To even invade Skyrim they have 3 options; through Cyrodiil, sail north past Hammerfell and High Rock, or sail to the west and then around and try a landing through Morrowind (or if they feel tremendously stupid, through the icy waters and land somewhere along Skyrim's northern coast). In the case of the Dominion declaring war against Skyrim it would also be fair to assume at the very least Hammerfell would accept if called to arms, even the empire would likely do so in that situation.

So sailing north would be nasty, as they would possibly have to face to combined navies of Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim. Even if they manage to prove superior and push through, I doubt the dominion can muster such an enormous force that they can actually get through while having enough ships/troops left to mount any meaningful amphibious assault.

Going through Cyrodiil? Equally nasty. Either they would be fighting the great war all over again with the Empire declaring war along with the seceded regions, and they will have to fight their way all the way up north, and with Hammerfell and Skyrim now independent they can besiege the Imperial City as many times as they'd like, it still won't frighten more than one out of three enemies. The other scenario I can imagine is that the Empire stays neutral and allow the dominion to move armies through their territory unchecked, this however I consider -very- unlikely. Not to mention that if the Empire stays neutral for a few weeks and then declare war the dominion will have their forces surrounded.

Then they can always try to go east/north and go through Morrowind. With friendly states covering the coast along the way that would be their safest bet. I don't know how severe the destruction of mainland Morrowind is though, but if it's a barren wasteland they might also bump into supply issues if there's nothing to scavenge. Not to mention that if another nation of man declares war at this point, they'll be in major trouble with their forces stuck in some ashy podunk at the wrong side of the map.

Not to mention the possible surge of nationalism among Nords, and general revanchism that might get triggered all over the empire (former and current) as a result of "If the nords can tell the dominion, albeit through the empire, to go svck on a nirnroot, then we can too!". And in addition there's always the possibility of trouble at home for the Thalmor. As far as I recall they started out as a political faction, which makes them something akin to the NSDAP in my eyes. And with them fumbling abroad by losing yet another region they previously had control over through a puppet state, and humans proving they're not pushovers, they could run into serious trouble when defending their aggressive super-villain policies.

Point is; an independent Skyrim might force the dominion's hand and push them into something they're not ready for. Effectively turning them into a paper-tiger.

I could buy this if Cyrodiil were not leaching troops and resources out of provinces to save itself but then turning those provinces over to the wolves when it's convenient to them.

That is not even remotely comparable and you darn well know it. Europeans came to North America as invaders, conquerors, slavers and mass murderers. Dark Elves came to Windhelm as powerless refugees just trying to survive. Native Americans Americans hating Europeans for destroying their way off life, stealing their homes and almost obliterating them entirely and never adequately making reparations for it (how could you even begin to make reparations for that?) is justified, hating Dark Elves for daring to live in your city and scratch out a modest existence is not.

And for those people who say that Ulfric was justified in abandoning all non-Nords to bandit raids because he was just prioritizing his limited resources to protect those that support his cause, keep in mind that the Dark Elves almost certainly would support his cause if he didn't oppress them and treat them like garbage.

The dunmer have had 160 years to get used to the nords. This didn't start with Ulfric. Half the dark elves do support him and are accepted by the nords. The other half sit around and complain all day.

Also I believe the Native American comparison was in regards to the imperials, not the dark elves.

My Daedric Bow Of The Inferno is vastly superior to any and all Imperialist dogs. I so enjoy sneaking up to their camps and taking them out one by one as they scatter and scurry around trying to find me.