I read a story in the "Meet the Devs" thread about one Dev who likes to play Conjurers. He said he likes to summon his pets and sit back while they kill his enemies.

That got me wondering how most people prefer to play Conjurers. I have no idea, I've never played one, so this poll is research for me. In my mind, I think it would be fun to have a Wizard's Duel over who has control. If the enemy summons a spider to kill you, wouldn't you at least like to TRY to snatch control of that spider and turn it against him? That sounds wildly exciting! So why wouldn't they also do it to you?

And I wondered, what your own Summoned monsters found a way to break your control and you had to do something to regain it? I don't mean just simply re-casting the spell, but I mean like some mouse-click combo merged with a RPG check against your Control skill and if you win, they are yours again. If not, they are now your newest enemy, and hate you twice over what any normal version of that monster would, since you formerly enslaved them. They might go BEZERK on you at this point!

It could add some spice to the Class of Conjurer and throw some instability into the mix. I don't think magic is entirely reliable, it's usually an unstable force, often dropping out on your when you need it most. Just some thoughts.

It's not a horrible idea but it slaps lore in the face.

@worm82075 would you, or someone else who knows, mind elaborating on any lore having to do with conjuration?

1 That would be far too hard to balance..

2 Due to limits with the engine its very unlikely true armies of summons will pop up ever.

3 pet classes are precisely the LAST class that wants to deal with any sort of micro management. They want to summon then roll and let the ai's to all the work.

Just the part about another conjurer taking control of your summons. When you summon something from a Deadric plane it is bound to your soul and immediately upon severing that bond it loses it's ability to maintain form in the world of Nirn and returns to Oblivion. So it would make sense that another caster could sever the bond and banish your summons but not take it over. Not sure the same applies to the summoning of animals but for the sake of argument I'd assume that it does.

First off, in some ways, I actually like the idea, but then my principle ideas of what conjuration is kick in, and I can't help but say no.

I can't speak accurately about TES lore in regards to conjuration, but to me, implied within the very magic that conjures the entity, creature, etc. are safeguards that prevent the creature from breaking free of your control by its own will. It would be at the very foundation of the magic. The same would be true for enemy mages trying to 'hijack' control of your summoned creature--the magic used to summon your 'pet' would bind it to your will, creating a guard that prevents influence by another mage to affect it.

This is a kind of standard take on conjuration in fantasy(maybe not so much in TES). The inexperienced conjurer would be more susceptible to having their summoned creature turn on them, because they would be more likely to have made an error in the fundamental magical process that brought the creature into this realm or world. The more experienced conjurer would be well aware of the dangers in summoning creatures and would understand the need for precision and attention to detail in the summoning process, but would make fewer mistakes.
In-game, this precise, drawn out process is only implied in the conjuration of creatures, and all you really see is the end result of a spell being cast and a creature appearing. This is done for the sake of swift gameplay--nothing more--when in fact there would be much more to the summoning process.

thank you both for your answers, i appreciate it, always eager to learn more about TES :grad:

you sound pretty spiritual man :frog:

meh

more interesting stuff in conjuring would be nice, but I would not go crazy if its the same...

hmmm maybe rituals and reagents for the more powerful OR permanent summons would be awesome though, even ritualistic sacrifice would be great for the necromancers out there.

RPG-based, based on a new skill for Conjurers called something like "Control"

New skill? :rofl:

I think summons should be unlimited in their duration but block off some of the casters magicka equal to half the cost of the summon, or somthing like that. though it does sound like a good idea for perks.

You can control some summons in Oblivion with command creature, turn undead makes the summoned undead to flee. This is surprisingly effective as the necromancer will not summon a new one and once the necromancer dies the undead goes away so this is not something very new.
However unless spell flashback is part of fail, as in failed fireball does fire damage on you this would be unbalancing.

I use summons as meat shields and distraction who draw enemy fire and attention. Found that most summons has to little killing power but has not used master level summons much but even a scamp works for distraction.

Wow, this is all very interesting to know about how it works in the TES system.




Obviously I meant new to the gaming system, as there isn't one now, at least not as I meant it to pertain to controlling summoned beasts. Now go flamebait someone else and let me get back to my dinner. :goodjob:

Yeah I really would like there to be a chance I'd lose control of them or enemy gaining control of them against me. I also would like to be able to buff my summoned creatures. And have creatures be longer lasting, like sometimes they'd be alove for days or even weeks, you could use something expensive like a soul gem to make the creatures live that long.

i like this but it seems to DEEP tor TES

this sound as awful as missing a hit whit a sword wend your clearly hit the target

No it doesn't.
Even scamps manage to break the spells over them and turn on their summoners.
Did ya ever play Morrowind?
There were several quests like this.
You go in a house and find everything trashed with a bunch of scamps running around, while their summoner is hiding in the closet hoping they don't kill him.

The Daedra are dangerous creatures to summon, always trying to trick the caster into a lapse of focus, allowing them to break free of the caster's will. Do note however, that the daedra summoned will still be forced back into oblivion if they were only temporarily summoned. More permenant rituals would need to be conducted in order for the daedra to stick around after the caster's death.

Yeah, I'm fine with the idea of summons being able to break free, as it has been noted that many novice summoners will occasionally lose control of their scamp, and it begins to wreck the place. However, taking away summons from another summoner is something I'm not a fan of.

I could see a conjuration spell that kills or "dismisses" summons but I don't think a control battle between wizards would be fun or frequent enough to be worth the dev attention needed to implement it well.
As for summons turning on us, I don't really care, maybe for low level conjurers but when you're skilled with it I don't think so.

I'd say it's more of part of the spell failures. Say you have 80% chance of being successful, the other 20% could be stuff ranging from summoning the wrong creature (which can be good or bad), the spell fizzles, or the summon turns on you.

As with all magic, things within your skill level should never fail. However, things above your skill level should not be locked out, they should just have a chance to fail - whether it be your control over a summon faltering, either permanently or temporarily, or your hair catching fire.

The thing about combat is it's so hectic I cannot see myself trying to turn an already present apparition on my team.

Id probably just use a weapon, cast a damage spell, or cast my own minion.

Thats what the 'Dispel' spell should do isn't it?

Here is the conjuration system I think would be best:

As you advance in the conjuration ability, you not only gain different sorts of creatures you can summon, but also gain more control over them. A summoning system where in general lower level creatures are easier to control than higher level creatures and on top of that the more advanced the conjurer is, the more control that conjurer has over these creatures, would be ideal. However, when creatures break free of their own accord, I don't think it should be a simple "they will attack you" but that they would simply be out of control and will attack any non-summoned creature to which it is closest. On top of this, I like the idea that control of summoned creatures can be wrested from one conjurer to the other. One consequence of this is that it would be a bad idea to start a conjuration duel against a conjurer who can gain better control of the summoned creatures (a significantly higher-level conjurer, within, say, several levels of conjuration ability, control preference should still be for the original conjurer). Intelligent creatures, like Dremora, ought to be both the hardest to control but, once controlled, the hardest to wrest control from the original conjurer; also for intelligent creatures like Dremora, when the counter-conjurer actually succeeds in taking the Dremora from the original conjurer's control, there should be a higher chance that the Dremora will simply become free and not choose either side and just have its own will, as opposed to more run of the mill summoned creatures (skeletons, Clannfears, zombies...) where the transfer of power would be more direct and stable.

This system is probably way too complicated and requires too much of a time investment in scripting etc to be profitable, though, and I'll be happy with whatever conjuration in Skyrim turns out to be, even if it is similar to Morrowind/Oblivion -- on thing I definitely want to see is multiple creature summoning be possible without having to get a mod to make it possible (it frustrated me how in Oblivion, prior to adding the necessary mod, I could only summon one creature at once).