I feel largely the same, though I can see how some might feel forced.

As can I. I have no problem with folks expressing the feelings they have for any game. I do, however, have a problem personally with folks who feel that if they feel that way everyone else must feel that way or they are just not "getting it" or just aren't "playing it right" or "are a lesser lower brained person".

You know, since it's a game and we all think differently as people, we really should try to see another's opinion as just that, an opinion. None of us can speak for everyone and I guess that was my point. When someone says, "I can't imagine anyone who have played all BGS games not feeling forced into the main quest" (loosely quoted) I take issue with it because it shows a lack of tolerance for other's opinions. And if there is one thing we need in this world, it's more tolerance.

True, but a "play many angles" playthrough is also fun. On my first run I did a lot of minutemen, railroad and Institue quests, but barely touched BOS. It allows you to play the "infiltration/gathering information/backstab" RP stuff. The game is actually well suited and built for this, at least as far as RR and Institute are concerned. Can't speak for BOS as I haven't done much yet but intend on progressing through it on my second playthrough.

So yes, the game has replay value for me, assuming one explores different options and different builds, even different companions. One thing the companions do way better than Skyrim is they give flavor to the factions and vary according to player style. I have no intention of being friendly will alll companions on a single playthrough. Some companions just don't make sense with certain character types.

Honestly, neither have I. I even forgot about going to Weynon Priory in my first playthrough of Oblivion after like 200 hours. What I'm trying to say is how the main quests in BGS fares in comparison to each other in terms of feeling forced.

On my second playthrough I decieded to ignore the minutemen completly (Preston is still waiting for his rescue of these few raiders and I am building my settlement empire completly without him ) and until it's 200 years after I got frozen my son isn't my top priority. It works actually pretty well. It's a complete different focus as my first playthrough where I followed the layed out path.

So the good old Bethesda haters have as always not played the game (edit: much) as they did with FO3.

Well that's good you can ignore Preston. But the idea of just endlessly building settlements isn't all that appealing to me.

Now if it turns out that by ignoring the Minute Men you can join the various raider groups out there and do quests for them, then I would replay it.

If not then I don't see any point replaying it. I enjoy seeing how all the different things when I do the quests differently. But again there isn't much point to it. I have a feeling they will all end the same or very close to the same. That and the options are limited and they cycle back to the same option in the end.

I am going to take a break and then possibly to another play through to see if I am wrong (hopefully I am) about there not being much to replaying.

Yeah I am sure you have already seen every tiny portion of the game and played every quest in your first playthrough. I didn't.

But I agree that the dialoge system is bad (don't mind the voiced protagonist btw.) and not much todo for us "evil" characters. This will be the focus of my third modmaking playthrough.

Still waiting for the possibility to join the fiends in NV btw. (the Khans can't be considered as Raiders anymore).

I put in 156 hours into my first time around looking for quests. I came across a lot of wasted locations. Raider settlements in which I thought I could go into and maybe find quests there, but nope, just got attacked. Take out the Minute Men and Brotherhood, kill and fetch quests, (all the "radiant" quests) there really isn't that many quests. I wouldn't be shocked to learn Fallout 3 has more quests then Fallout 4.

I am not sure what "modmaking playthrough" means. I am guessing you get a bunch of mods and play again? Or make your own.

If the Developers intended for the game to have replay value based on content added from the modding community... then that is pretty sad IMO. Sure if you look at it from the perspective that you can add countless mods made by fans then yeah the game has endless replay value. But you can say that about any game that can be easily modded.

Replay value to me is based on what the game itself has to offer. Not what the modding community has to offer.

Edit: As for the Fiends. You can't join them but you can talk to their leader and get into Vault 3 without shooting your way in. You can join and or at least work with pretty much all the factions in New Vegas.

1 Which makes your original distinction between 'bad design' and 'factually bad design' choices vacuous at best.

I also never stated that my opinion was fact, but that my own perception was part of a growing sentiment.

2 They're both incredible; not to the same extent, but there's a truth to the claim.If Todd Howard claimed that people were playing Fallout 4 wrongly, it would contravene every tenet of business to game design, from the customer always being right, to Bethesda's games providing a world in which to act freely and everything in between.

Conversely I don't see many people claiming that Bethesda ruined Fallout; I personally argue that there is little if any natural or congruent progression from old to new Fallout.

You should more about me in the meantime with our countless converstations. Yes I make mods. Yes I will add slavers and raiders as joinable faction to FO4.

As I did for FO3 (I only extended the slavers for FO3, you could join them, but most Beth haters only did shoot them down). And no I don't think it is sad that a game has exetesive modmaking capabilities actually in contrary bcause you can't please everyone as you give a nice example here.

About the fiends: Seriously sneaking in, in disguise is joining for you? Really? That's sad....

as much as sad that I wasn't able to play as slaver in NV and in FO4.

Constructive criticism = Irrational Hatred. It would seem. If you don't like everything about it well you must hate Bethesda or just blinded by nostalgia. What is the point have having a forum if everyone is going to have a different opinion?

I enjoy Fallout 4, I think it is better than Fallout 3. There are lost of things I like about the game. I like that we do have options on who to join for the main quest line. Lots of little things and little details can go a long way. But it is weak on story, quest options and little to no consequences.

To me mods aren't replay Value. It is great if it is for you.

As for the Fiends. I didn't say it was joining. But it is a lot better then what we can do in Fallout 4. I don't need to join every faction. I just want more options then making a bloody mess when it comes to quests.

Yes making mods and also playing mods add a lot of replay value to many people. Whole youtube channels making a living out of it.

FO4 added a ton of background to their Raider Factions in the terminals. Involved them in Quests too. Even showed their personalities, have extended conversations (if you sneak and listen and don't go in shooting only) even a Raider christmas tree . To say the Raiders in FO4 are boring shoot them up enemies is total nonsens. They are better written and more detailed made as the fiends in NV with their miniquest, actually a lot. A lot of Raider locations have their own backstories.

Maybe another playthrough to see what you missed here there is a lot to discover.

and is really lame on NV that u can go to every faction the game look more like a MMO that a RPG when it come down to factions. LOL event the reputation system is a bad copy of the reputation system of WoW.

And that is an awesome thing to people who making mods and playing mods. I am sure it brings you a lot of good times and I am not being sarcastic.

But to me and I know a lot of others. Replay Value comes from what the base game has to offer. I love exploring the Fallout Universe. I want to get every little bit of information out of the game as I can. I want to explore how the game expands the universe.

Mods are all unofficial content and therefore meaningless to me.

I do enjoy listening in on people's conversations and reading terminals. I don't believe it is total nonsense to say that the raiders are just there to shoot at. They have many locations in which you can tell they make money from businesses. And yet their business model is to shoot anyone new who walks up to them?

Better then NV? Agree to disagree on that one or we will be at it all day.

Yes we share this love for the Fallout universe.

Did you read the terminals? Did you ever got a captured settler quest? Did you see what the Raiders do in the two quaries.... only a few examples (there are a ton more in the game). Yes they shoot at you, yes they don't like the player but what you are making out of them here has nothing todo with the actual game.

The fiends are a really boring faction compared to them.

Fallout 2 which came out in 1998 has a reputation system. New Vegas put in a lot of features from the original Fallouts that were left out of Fallout 3.

And you don't like that in New Vegas you can do things multiple ways? Killing every one and everything is the only acceptable option of an RPG?

I have had the go save the captured settler quests. Not much to them. Oh look a guy tied up, should I or shouldn't I let them go? I do read their terminals. I should be happy with that?

Why can't I bet on a fight in the Combat Zone or bet on one of the robot races at that race track or have a drink at the bar in Libertalia?

At least I can have a conversation with the Fiends and I don't have to kill them all.

Yeah why is there a location which isn't setup as a personal playground (amusemant park) for the player?

Yeah you can spare the Raiders in the Vault in NV if you are carefull (But why can't I get in to the Raider Vault in without shooting fiends btw. to use your logic?).

Guess what you can rescue settlers in FO4 without casulities too, interesting isn't it .

I thought we were playing a Role Playing game here. We aren't? Why put in a damn robot race track or an area with cage fighting and not let the player interact with it? What if I want to role play as a raider? svcks that all the raider groups won't let me play in any of their raider games. And I can't build any raider like settlements.

Bethesda's Fallouts are amusemant parks, the problem in Fallout 4 is that there's only one ride to go on; the kill fest.

That's often the case at least...

Wonder what it says about my state of mind when I read this as, "What if I want to roleplay as a reindeer? svcks that all the reindeer groups won't let me play in any of their reindeer games. And I can't build any reindeer like settlements."

Hee hee

Yeah why can't I play as fiend in NV? All these bad computer games doesn't give me what I want. Evil, evil games.

So yeah you use one of the minor groups in Fallout New Vegas that we can't join to defend the lack of options in Fallout 4?

Pretty weak argument. "But but the Fiends!"

Fallout 4 sets up several large raider communities with actual things to do in them. Watching fights and races, some even have merchants/bars and yet we the player can't do anything in those locations other than read some terminals and kill all the raiders. Then go back an hour later and kill them all again.

I get where you are coming from. If you don't like it you can just go and make a mod or find a mod. That isn't meant to come off as insulting. It is an option for you. I can see why having less options in the main game is great for you. It is great for you because you love modding. The more stuff Bethesda leaves out, means more fun for you putting it in.

I can see some mods people are working on now: "Fight in the Combat Zone!" I am sure is one.

So yeah less content put into the game equals more modding fun for you and your buddies.

I have my special field in making mods for Bethesda and a Obsidian game. So no I won't make this mod. I won't even play these ones if they are made because these areas where deliberatly designed to give you background on this groups and to use your sneak skills to get whats going on. Games aren't a dialogue medium only nowadays. They are much richer then this.

What I am telling you with the fiends example is simple that every game has their shoot em up enemies. Even your praised NV. Btw. let us not forget the convicts if you criticize that I constantly use the fiends as example.

As you admit yourself has FO4 made a lot of effort to give the Raiders background. So your earlier argument that they are only shoot, shoot, shoot isn't valid as you said yourself. You can discover in this game what they make a living out and get a ton of background about this groups. Yes more then you get in NV (Fiends and Convicts I am talking about).

They shoot at the player but yes thats their purpose as it is with the fiends and convicts.

So you make mods. Lack of options means more fun for you because you can mod in those options. So you defend it with weak arguments "you can't join the Fiends in New Vegas so stop complaining about Fallout 4!"

I am arguing that I can't interact with those communities but you say I can read terminals and that equals "interacting" with them to you?

Why can't I go into the Combat Zone and do things like I could in Diamond City? That is what I am talking about.