Does gamesas indrectly nudge you towards the Empire?

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Can someone remind me of the "particular book" from the main quest? Was it during the thalmor party?
User avatar
Epul Kedah
 
Posts: 3545
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:35 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:07 pm

I think it's kind of brilliant that gamesas made it so that neither side is clearly a better choice. They both have good and bad things (this list is by no means exhaustive; just what I've noticed so far):

Empire:

* Tries to kill you right at the start of the game
* Tool of the Thalmor (though perhaps would like to shake off the Thalmor, just not strong enough to do it yet)
* Religious persecution
* Weak (as evidenced by the fact that the Thalmor have so much say in internal affairs), perhaps needs to be replaced by a new empire, or by independent states, or by a confedration, etc.
* Well organized, so potetially lots to offer you if you try to work from within to reform the system, instead of from without to overthrow.
* Problems with corruption and incompetence

Stormcloaks:

* Doesn't try to kill you (at least, until you join the Imperials)
* Might be unwitting (or perhaps some at the top are complicit) tools of the Thalmor, keeping the Empire weakened so it can't shake off the Dominion's influence.
* Claims to want to offer religious freedom (although, also seems to persecute the Forsworn, maybe Daedra worshippers, etc)
* but is also very racist/Nord Supremecists.
* Weak and disorganized, though potentially can grow in strength with the right Hero aiding them.
* Their civil war, even if justified, means a lot of people are going to die.
* May achieve independence from the Thalmor and Empire, but in fracturing and further weakening the Empire, may sow the seeds of Tamriel's downfall and their own destruction.
* Problems with corruption and incompetence

So, in the end, the player gets to choose based upon what's most important to them. I didn't at all feel pushed towards the empire - I kind of resent that they wanted to give me a craniectomy, and despise the Thalmor, so I chose the Stormcloaks, but I did wrestle somewhat with the decision. The OP, on the other hand, because different things were important to him/her, thought they were lead in a different direction for their choice. That tells me the writers hit almost a perfect balance if different people feel the 'natural choice' is different.
User avatar
keri seymour
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:09 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:28 pm

If anything I'd say they nudge you the other direction - the Empire tries to have you killed and the Empire is being controlled by the Thalmor.

This definitely, if I was a neutral character who didn't have a side I would have a hard time siding with the imperials after they tried to chop your head off.
User avatar
HARDHEAD
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:49 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:47 pm

I felt more nudged towards freeing skyrim from the empire rally, the empire are clearly bad guys and sell outs even if selling out was the correct thing to do.
User avatar
Carolyne Bolt
 
Posts: 3401
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:56 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:02 pm

I felt the exact opposite. I felt like the game was rediculously biased towards the rebels... Let me run over the opening scene.

1. You start of tied up, in Imperial captivity.
2. You were caught crossing the border. OH NO, CERTAINLY YOU SHOULD BE KILLED WITHOUT QUESTION! This made me already mad at the Empire.
3. Your name is not on the list, but the stupid captain lady is like, "Lol kill him/her anyway. Trolololol" This made me even more angry at them.
4. When you are freed by Alduins landing, you immediately have to run over to the Stormcloaks gathering in the nearby tower. They pass words of their struggle and that they wish to escape. Making you feel sorry for them, and making the Empire seem like the big bad bully.
5. Suddenly the Empire is nice and the guys says "If you want to live, stay with me." Wtf? He was just going to decapitate me! Why is he suddenly my best friend?
6. You are given the choice between the two parties when you must enter the keep. For me, as per the last 5 points, the choice was EFFORTLESSLY go with the Stormcloak. I did it without the slightest hesitation.
7. While in the caves you bond with the stormcloaks, their valiant battle to escape captivity and fight for the freedom of the common Nord.

Honestly, without knowing anything about either side prior to playing this the first time, and without thinking into it too much, by the end of the 'tutorial' segment, I was ready to burn the Empire to the ground. I thought this game was ungodly biased in favor of the rebels in the entire opening segment. (The time in which the player is the most succeptable to establishing characters and story) So... yeah....
User avatar
jadie kell
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:54 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:24 pm

Kill everyone and make your own empire. This is the Uruk way.
User avatar
sarah taylor
 
Posts: 3490
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:36 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:16 pm

I feel like Bethesda is trying to make a point of showing how war isn't about "good" and "evil". It's about picking which corrupt self serving faction you're willing to die for to elevate their elites to a higher standard of living.
User avatar
noa zarfati
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:54 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:05 pm

5. Suddenly the Empire is nice and the guys says "If you want to live, stay with me." Wtf? He was just going to decapitate me! Why is he suddenly my best friend?


This was pretty odd, but perhaps odder is that if you hang around at the gate with Imperial Battlemages (a troop mysteriously absent from the rest of the game) General Tullius says to the PC: "Run you idiot!", as if they didn't want you dead. Could they make up their minds?
User avatar
Emma
 
Posts: 3287
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:51 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:57 pm

The Empire for me at least feels too similar to the NCR from New Vegas. They sound good in theory but are corrupt to the core.
User avatar
Dominic Vaughan
 
Posts: 3531
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 1:47 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:15 pm

The Empire for me at least feels too similar to the NCR from New Vegas. They sound good in theory but are corrupt to the core.


Good way to put it.
User avatar
Naughty not Nice
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:14 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:00 pm

I dunno, before I had even been to a Stormcloak city, I was rather turned off of the Imperials the first time I entered Solitude:

Spoiler
And the guy was executed in front of everyone, including his niece, and everyone thought he didn't deserve death.


Not True One Guy was saying he was a total Jerk!
User avatar
Multi Multi
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:07 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:06 pm

Not True One3 Guys was saying he was a total Jerk!


Most people I talked to said he was a total jerk or that it needed to be done... There was maybe one or two people who thought the execution shouldn't take place.
User avatar
Rowena
 
Posts: 3471
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:40 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:50 pm

This was pretty odd, but perhaps odder is that if you hang around at the gate with Imperial Battlemages (a troop mysteriously absent from the rest of the game) General Tullius says to the PC: "Run you idiot!", as if they didn't want you dead. Could they make up their minds?

They most likely all knew you weren't with the Stormcloaks at all [mainly because you're not wearing their uniform]. The only one who was a being a dike about it was the female Captain.
User avatar
Ella Loapaga
 
Posts: 3376
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:45 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:41 pm

My character is a Nord and as a Nord you have to be against the Empire. You should want to keep the Nord way of life intact. I kill imperials on site.
User avatar
Queen
 
Posts: 3480
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:00 pm

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:14 am

It took a lot of thinking and evidence to convince me that the Empire is actually the better choice... I was more with the Stormcloaks until I realized how Stormcloaks would lose in the end..
User avatar
Caroline flitcroft
 
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:05 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:24 pm

Knowing what I know (damn spoilers) I'm partial to the Empire.....

However I will run a Stormcloak character once.... prolly on my Nord 2-hadning warrior.

Even though I know as a player what his best choice would be... I want to play out the Stormcloak campaign at least once... for starters... and of all my characters he's the most fitting character to fight with the Stormcloaks.

Here's the spoiler if you care (warning... BIG spoiler):
Spoiler

The Thalamor are actually behind the Stormcloack rebellion. Ulfric was actually captured and brainwashed to their ends to create division in the Empire so Thalamor could complete their conquest against a weekend empire.

The outlawing of worshipping Talos was not enforced until the Thalmor sparked the rebellion, and the Empire actually has no reason to even have the law except that it was part of the peace treaty with the Thalamor (which I'm sure they provisioned precisely so they could sow dissension in the Empire)

So.... The Empire is actually the better faction.... though personally I would side with neither.

User avatar
scorpion972
 
Posts: 3515
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:20 am

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:16 pm

When you first start playing the game, knowing nothing about the game or its lore, they seem to strongly suggest you go with the Stormcloaks. The Imperials are the ones about to cut your head off, and then you're an escaping prisoner like Ralof.

Yes, there are nice things to be said about Helvar, and the Empire is probably the way to go in the long run. But in that hectic moment in the beginning, I'd go for prisoner solidarity.


Nah, each TES starts with you in jail or about to be killed and 5 ou 5 time it was because of the Empire or by the Empire itself.
Add to that the first line of Ulfric that just makes an ass of himself : "Legends don't kill people" .... Oh great we have a philosopher here.
Nah, it is typical TES setup, save the region and/or the Empire against themselves.
The begining of the game doesn't nudge you toward any side, myself i was just pondering who could be the Thalmors (didn't read past 200 years lore to not spoil discovery), and how Aldruin could destroy so many buildings in few seconds then take so long to kill few soldiers in leather amor :facepalm:
User avatar
Steven Hardman
 
Posts: 3323
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:12 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:14 am

i'm pretty laid back irl, but, if you tried to cut off my head without even due process, I'd be pretty keen to side with your enemies. :thumbsup:
User avatar
Queen Bitch
 
Posts: 3312
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:43 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:44 pm

Also a new save icon is the Imperial camp map marker.
User avatar
glot
 
Posts: 3297
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:41 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:35 am

well a certain book in a certain main quest will pretty much confirm that a rebel victory is less than beneficial for skyrim, so quite frankly i dont know why they even gave me a choice. ironically, after learning this the only reason to join the stormcloaks is to secretly undermine skyrim :spotted owl: .


Not true.

This book confirms that the Thalmor want the civil war to drag out as long as possible to thin the numbers of both sides.
User avatar
Janine Rose
 
Posts: 3428
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:59 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:47 pm

Not true.

This book confirms that the Thalmor want the civil war to drag out as long as possible to thin the numbers of both sides.


They want both sides thin that is true, either way the Thalmor see either side coming out on top less then a benefit to them, though the idea soluation to stop the Thalmor would be to try to make peace between both sides which is not given.
User avatar
TASTY TRACY
 
Posts: 3282
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:11 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:20 pm

To answer OP question: no The game nudges you to stormcloaks.

1. You are about to be executed by them
2. In the basemant of the tutorial the empire has a TORTURER in their basemant who seems like a real [censored].
3. Nord charm and underdog appeal.

In regards to people who say the empire is the obvious choice strategically. I say nay sir!
The empire has only proved its incompetence again and again in the last few hundred years, with the dead of Uriel V's son, that was it. Everyone else was a total screw up. Mad emperor after mad emperor, for what?

The empire left everyone out to dry once it took back its city. Hey nords, redguards, dunmer, bosmer and everyone, [censored] you after defending our city. we wont try and help you back for your sacrifice (particularly the Redguards, who still fight the aldmeri in hammerfell SUCCESSFULLY, if not offensively). Elswyr, vvardenfall, the black marsh all left for the Aldmeri. So if any Khajit, Aragonians or Bosmer claim that the empire is going to help them, they are dead wrong, it left them in the dust.
With regard to Talos, without Talos the empire means nothing. Its just authority for authorities sake. Talos is the belief in human power, versus that of the elven. The empire is too big, too corrupt and too inept. There is no reason why once the nords separate, they cant initiate trade and alliances with all the other splintered factions of tamriel against the aldmeri. Its NOT the forgone conclusion most seem to imply that it is. Stormcloaks just a bunch of whiny teenagers? I suppose the Americans were to, just a while back, or basically every political party ever started as something that undermined the status quo. Calling all rebellions silly is completely off the wall. Its only silly if they lose.
User avatar
X(S.a.R.a.H)X
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:38 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:30 am

Not true.

This book confirms that the Thalmor want the civil war to drag out as long as possible to thin the numbers of both sides.


Yup, related quotes from the dossier are :

... obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim ... A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided ...

User avatar
Len swann
 
Posts: 3466
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:02 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:32 pm

Anyone like the calm, quiet feel of Falkreath, Solitude and Whiterun?

But then you go to, say, a place like Markarth, or Riften, or Windhelm

Only 1 of the first 3 actually belongs to the Empire, Solitude. Falkreath and Whiterun are pretty much neutral.

Markarth is held by the Empire.
User avatar
Gill Mackin
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:58 pm

Post » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:57 am

I see a lot of people point to that "Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided" and mistakenly assume that it still isn't comparatively better than an Imperial victory. The Thalmor agitated a civil war into existence and I'm sure that they realized somebody might eventually win. Now ask yourselves, if the Thalmor's objective from the start was the destabilize the Empire, which side do you think they'd prefer win over the other? Keeping the war going until they're ready to strike is the ideal result but I'm rather positive that they'd rather the Empire split further so that its best front-line troops still have a civil war fresh in their minds. The only way to put Ulfric's Civil War behind everybody so that Tamriel can have a unified front against the Thalmor is if the Empire wins.
User avatar
Sebrina Johnstone
 
Posts: 3456
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:58 pm

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim