Well this has been on my mind the past couple of days, and I wanted the forum's input. Anyone like the calm, quiet feel of Falkreath, Solitude and Whiterun? The way everything is mellow and the city seems to be "normal"?

But then you go to, say, a place like Markarth, or Riften, or Windhelm, where you see everyone in the town is either bat[censored] insane or racist. Difference in these places? The former are part of the Empire, while the Stormcloaks hold the latter! When I first went to markarth and saw all this crazy [censored] going down, I thought it might be a coincidence that they were with the stormcloaks. but then i saw it in a lot of the cities I visited after it that were a part of the Stormcloaks, even Dawnstar has an idiotic Jarl.

Thoughts on this? Coincidence perhaps? OP is a troll?

it's fairly direct. No one wants a rebel faction to reign.

Also... there's the fact that rebellions are like teenage rebellions. Just false claims that something isn't working and an attempt to overthrow despite the complete inferiority of abilities. Fight the power. Except the power is well-organized and structured so everyone can get stuff done. What was I saying? Oh yeah, Bethesda did it on purpose. Either the Stormcloaks are just whiny and rebellious like a teenager and the Imperials are the organized, intelligent parent, or Bethesda has a special bias towards large, stuck-up political organizations of people.

and the OP is a troll

Markarth is held by the Empire, not the Stormcloaks.

If anything I'd say they nudge you the other direction - the Empire tries to have you killed and the Empire is being controlled by the Thalmor.

Stormcloaks:

Winterhold -> Jarl hates the College and Elves.
Windhelm -> Dark Elves Slum
Dawnstar -> Senile Jarl.
Riften -> Mass Corruption.

Empire:

Markarth -> Crazy People and Rebel Crazy People.
Soliture -> Lawful People
Falkreath -> A Big Cemetery?
Morthal -> Haunted City.
Whiterun -> Nice Neutral City under Empire rule.

Happy, contented people don't tend to take part in rebellions, nor does rebellion tend to stabilize societies. It makes sense for peaceful cities to be more supportive to the Empire and for Imperial-controlled cities to be more peaceful.

And before anyone says anything, this doesn't mean that I wouldn't support people's right to rebel against real-world corrupt governments. It's necessary sometimes, but it just doesn't contribute to short-term stability.

Markarth is with the empire, though yeah i like the pro empire places better for the most part and still sided with them i didn't feel goaded to it :happy:

my bad i thought markarth was with the stormcloaks, damn that puts a hole in my argument doesn't it? haha

I think they more or less make both sides look equally good and bad. Both sides make some good cases and also say/do some stupid things.

you have a point,

it's like the monty python scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

so the righ side with the imperials and the poor and tumultous with Ulfric,


also, it's quite hard for me to pick sides, I like the nordic nationalism, but realize that it would only lead to more conflict between themselves and against elves and imperials, the empire brings order and prosperity though it has lost legitimacy with the Thalos thing

what...? they opened up the game with the empire wanting to behead u. i dont know about u, but that kinds puts me off helping them and joining their cause in the future...

the first town u go to is riverwood, not exactly pro-empire. the first major city u go to, whiterun, is home to the pro-empire nords who are portrayed as rich and greedy while the pro-stormcloaks are portrayed as traditionalist and peaceful.

if anything, i felt pressured into joining the stormcloaks.

I thought the obvious choice was the stormcloaks. I was really more dissapointed by the fact that once you pick a faction and beat the other. Barely anything changes except the guard's uniforms.

The Jarls change as well. But I agree, we just see minor changes.

OWNED

^this.

Intellectually you should support the empire, but I felt they were trying to kick you into the direction of the rebellion.

well a certain book in a certain main quest will pretty much confirm that a rebel victory is less than beneficial for skyrim, so quite frankly i dont know why they even gave me a choice. ironically, after learning this the only reason to join the stormcloaks is to secretly undermine skyrim :spotted owl: .

I think that Bethesda strongly nudge the uninformed player toward the stormcloaks at the beginning, what with the 'noble prisoner/cruel executioner' mustachioed pantomime villain setup, but then they impact you with morally grey uncertainty as you realise how racist the Stormcloaks are, how deceptive Ulric is and what the Empire is actually doing. I'm guessing a lot of people went with that trajectory - Ulric first, then doubt, then maybe Empire.

Personally, I've always been an Imperial diehard, and so I took great offence at that petty opening scene <_<

I've absolutely noticed that yes, Bethesda does nudge you towards the empire. The best example I can give is that some Farmers on the roads "are on their way to join the legion". Second thing, in the beginning fight Stormcloaks, not Imperials - something I don't understand - who would help someone who was about to execute you in cold blood?

I did notice that the poorer less cosmopolitian of the cities seem to be with the empire.

Having the best house and the best city be in the empire side is a bit of a slap to the rebels

Who you fight depends on which npc you follow and as to the farmer you run into plenty going to join both sides.

Like those pesky Americans! One day England's coming back to liberate us!

So...they push you to the empire by trying to remove your head at the start of the game if anything at the start they push you to the stormcloaks then after awhile if you dont like them you find out that the stormcloaks are just racist bastards that care about nothing more then taking power and killing every other race and it's funny how ulfric manchild says they are *true sons of skyrim* yet they attack their own people try and take over whiterun with catapults and dont even care where they aim them in the city as long as they get a city they would kill every one also it's funny how they blame the empire for the thalmor yet if it wasnt for them the thalmor would be in skyrim in full force making you do what they want and making you belieave in their gods.

I feel that the most viewable "hints" to the player nudge you towards the Stormcloacks...

However, once I began to actually dig into the TES lore and look at the big picture, supporting the Empire became the obvious choice (for me). Do I understand the Stomcloaks goals? Absolutely, and I agree on most of there points. However, I'll not support an immature & racist leader.

The White-gold Concordat? The Empire signed that BS treaty to save itself from being annihilated, nothing else. Losing some freedom of worship to one of 9 gods is preferable to likely losing the war outright, and being slaves or 2nd class citizens to a bunch of ass-hat Elves from the Dominion.

The other problem is that, if Skyrim became totally independent, it would be quickly crushed underfoot by the Dominions army, or re-taken completely by the Empire. Skyrim is a big place, but the rest of the Empire & Dominion territories (and population) is far larger.

I've not joined either but lean towards the empire, even though if I had to pick a god, it'd be Talos.

I feel as though they set the game up very pro-Stormcloak, rebels vs. evil empire. And then as you get into the world (And start to learn more about the Thalmor, mainly through the main quest) you see that things aren't so black and white.

It seems a reasonable bit of world building to me.

Rebel factions often aren't the most organized, they don't have a bureaucracy in place, no checks, balances what have you - often leaders get into positions of power by way of power, not by virtue of being fit for the job. A degree of instability, as it were, is the name of the game.

On the other hand tthis is what the Empire does - organization, running clean, orderly socieities with greater resources - one would expect them to have seemingly well run cities (though with mega government structures one also expects to be able to scratch the right surface and find corruption) and would work to ensure the people in them don't have much of a reason to want to go over the the rebels.

But anyway I wouldn't say so - the game opens with you and the empire interacting under rather bad circumstances, which would probably color a lot of peoples attitude towards them - at least innitially. I think Bethesda gives you are nudge to move beyond that initial unpleasantness and really look at the two sides and judge them on their merits (in my humble opinion the Empire comes out far better in that, but I'm sure there are people who disagree).



Which caused my Thalmor sympathiser/deep cover agent character some joy.



Indeed.



Well Hadvar questioned the fact you weren't on the list at least and Tullus wasn't especially involved in the name taking (angry women was).

The Empire was going to kill me (bad empire) and none of the Stormcloaks I was about to die with apparently felt the need to say "they weren't with us", even if it wouldn't have done much good (bad Stormcloaks). Yeah thanks Ralof, your sentiments about dying with your head held high are fine and all but I'd rather you make at least a token gesture of clearing my name since I didn't asked to get caught up in this.

But any way the people you fight depend on who you followed. Hadvar, the Empire man, is perfectly happy to try and help you make it out alive and even points you in the direction of the Legion, so it isn't like the Empire and all its soldiers want you dead no matter what. If you follow Hadvar Stormcloaks try and kill you both.