Does Karma mean anything at all? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:39 pm

my point is witness. where is the proof that i stole something? we can steal from the powder gangers but can't steal from the vipers. why is that? we go into vault 3 and everything we pick up doesn't count as theft. since they conquered the place, everything belongs to them. if we pick up things there, the fiends should become hostile.

This issue is based on the fact that nothing in Vault 3, or Vault 19 is "owned". Whether those should be owned or not is a different discussion (as the current occupants are interlopers or squatters). However, in other locations, that are clearly abandoned or not under current ownership, those items should not be owned, and hence no Karma Loss.

With the theft thing, why werre the items in the Silver Rush red, but there was no karma loss for stealing them?

This is weird. I just had to deal with the Silver Rush last night and I now have all their inventory available to me. I did not take any of it as it was indicated as owned. I need to test this to see if I get a Karma Loss or not. However, in this case, while the Van Graff's are in residence, the items should be owned, however once certain events take place, then all those items should become neutral (which maybe what happened, even though their indicated to be owned, you can take them without the Karma loss which would be OK for me). It could be that taking these things while they are alive is tantamount to suicide, so there is not Karma Mechanism needed here.

However, I would like to know before I take something if I am going to get dinged for it if the Ownership Indicator is not an accurate representation.

» Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:00 am

As far as the Silver Rush goes... I have not pulled it all up in the GECK, but if I had to guess, I would say most items with karma hits are based on ownership by factions, not individuals. This would offer a reason why stealing from any of the shacks in Primm makes it so you can't sell to Nash, or stealing from a house in Goodsprings prevents you from selling those items to Chet (although stealing from Trudy directly at the Saloon does permit Chet to buy the items from you). Then again, I really cannot remember if I took karma hits from robbing the still at the Saloon or not, I could well be wrong or it could be on a case-by-case basis.

That might also explain why taking stuff from that one person during Boone's quest gives no hits. I know the Silver Rush does have its own unmarked faction, but none of the items there are owned by Gloria Van Graff, or she would have them in her sale list.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:04 pm

That might also explain why taking stuff from that one person during Boone's quest gives no hits.

So if I understand what you're saying, that means the lady's items belongs to no 'faction', while other red-marked items in Novac, do? I guess I don't understand why, if there is going to be no karma loss, they would be 'red items' in the first place. That's where the confusion starts. It makes no sense, at least to me.

Edit: wait....unless you're also saying that the lady owns those items, so she would get angry if she sees you steal them, but no one else in the town would react/no karma loss? That might make more sense.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:41 pm

So if I understand what you're saying, that means the lady's items belongs to no 'faction', while other red-marked items in Novac, do? I guess I don't understand why, if there is going to be no karma loss, they would be 'red items' in the first place. That's where the confusion starts. It makes no sense, at least to me.

Edit: wait....unless you're also saying that the lady owns those items, so she would get angry if she sees you steal them, but no one else in the town would react/no karma loss? That might make more sense.

It likely means Jenny and the Van Graffs items because it's largely expected you'll kill them, so you wont get in trouble for taking their items when you kill them

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:21 am

No karma loss yes...but they'll get mad/attack if you steal while they're still alive and they see you, right? I know the lady in Novac does.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:51 pm

So if I understand what you're saying, that means the lady's items belongs to no 'faction', while other red-marked items in Novac, do? I guess I don't understand why, if there is going to be no karma loss, they would be 'red items' in the first place. That's where the confusion starts. It makes no sense, at least to me.

Edit: wait....unless you're also saying that the lady owns those items, so she would get angry if she sees you steal them, but no one else in the town would react/no karma loss? That might make more sense.

What your edit is pointing at is what I was trying to say. I think the reason she is not necessarily on the Novac faction, aside from

Spoiler

when she gives you the deal on the Motel Room for being Accepted is so that when she meets her fate during the quest with the beret, the remaining town does not go berserk on the man with the gun should they witness it.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:00 pm

Actually karma is literally bugged
Kill:
Very evil character: +2 (Vulpes Inculta, etc.)
Evil character: +100(Fiends, ghouls, etc.)
Neutral: 0
Good: -50
Very good: -100

» Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:36 am

The Van Graffs stuff was stolen from Gun Runner caravans.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:11 pm

Losing karma for stealing from the Legion I can sort of see, as while they may have brutal methods, we know that not everyone there is truly evil (you could be stealing from the slaves instead of the masters, after all). Losing karma for stealing from the Powder Gangers - convicted criminals actively pursuing further criminal endeavors - is very shaky to me.

There is only one really noticeable effect from karma that I have seen aside from minor quest hooks (most of which can be gotten around with a speech check of some kind) - you will lose one companion permanently if your karma goes too far in one direction.

Dont think the slaves have anything to steal, except those big basket of stones on their back. Hmmm..if I get into property management in the Mojave they may come in handy though..

Wheres my Incinerator... :flamethrower:

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:50 pm

The Karma system in itself I love, but I feel Obsidian screwed the pooch on properly implementing it. Killing certian factions gives you karma? Huh, so much for F:NV being 'morally grey'

I think F3 did a better job implementing Karma than New Vegas did.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:24 pm

Completely agree in fo3 i strive to be a good guy and physically can't bring myself to be a bad but in fonv i literally have no idea as what my karma is in any of my 4 play throughs in nv karma is indeed a unrewarding [censored].

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:42 pm

With the Silver Rush, I tried the pick something up and walk around the corner trick. It worked and I lost no karma even though the Van Graffs were standing by the counter and I had not done any of the Cass quests. The theft/karma loss system is messed up. I also think it is odd that I would gain karma for killing a fiend, but lose it for devouring one. If they are so nasty it is a good thing to kill one, why does it matter if you eat one? Cannabilism is how my bad guy stays bad - it is for his RP too.

» Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:29 am

Well i played Fallout NV doing mostly good things but stealing a lot and being a cannibal, i ended up with very high karma because i killed a lot of fiends and PGs. i then played F3 the same way - Canibalism and killed a lot of raiders and ended up on the eviler side of neutral.

» Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:39 pm

Evil character: +100(Fiends, ghouls, etc.)[/b]

That explains why i was Very good not long after "player.rewardkarma -1000" (largest negative amount possible). 10 Kills and you're neutral, ten more and you're Very Good :blink: And there's lots of Fiends to kill.