I'm getting confused. Maybe use a visual anology that is easier to understand for someone like me? Kinda like how Shrek explained to Donkey that ogres are like onions.

It seems like there is a subgradient floor; I haven't seen any degredation the in the mortal races. It appears to have bottomed out for the vast majority a long time ago and ever since then the only difference has been a reduction of mortal beings not of the "bottom" subgradient. Plus, we have the Lesser Daedra who seem to be of a similar level of subgradient to that of mortals, although they were probably always like that.

Okay, stop me when you get confused. So the Elves believe that creation started with one entity, AE. Now (all of this will be according to the elves), AE divided itself into Anu and Padomay, essentially recreating itself and in the process Anu and Padomay were lesser than AE. And both of these forces recreated themselves into lesser versions and those recreations recreated themselves and over and over until we got Men and Mer. Think about it like a pyramid, with AE on the top grade and on the 2nd grade is Anu and Padomay and so forth until you get Men and Mer down at the bottom. You wanna be on the upper levels because you're more powerful there, got a greater amount of immortality, or whatever. But you're just a measly little Elf down at the bottom, mortal, fragile, and powerless. Subgradient (literally, below grades) refers to these levels of creation and the direction the amount of power is heading. So if you're creating a new subgradient, men and mer are recreating themselves into something new and lesser than before and if you're jumping up a subgradient, you're moving up a tier of creation so that if you're an Elf, then you become Aldmeri (note: Aldmeri here refers to the kind of Elf that lived in Aldmeris before it disappeared, not the Aldmeri that lived in the Summerset Isles before cultural schisms turned them into the various other Mer. I know, it's confusing; the former is a metaphysical state of being, the latter is a cultural state of being.) Finally, subgradient can just refer to a level of creation without implying any movement. So you can just say "Men and Mer are on the same subgradient" without saying "they're on the same level of creation". Efficiency of words and all that.

The Altmer would probably argue that the other mer have degraded below them and they are on the upper end of the same subgradient.

Re: Lesser Daedra, Ehhhh. While it's true the Hist are (more than likely) above the subgradient of mortals, the act of recreation tends to erase the former subgradient's denizens... or at least remove them from daily interaction with the lesser grade. Plus, Lesser Daedra aren't really as reliant on Daedra Lords (their ostensible superiors) the same way Mortals are on the Aedra or Argonians on the Hist. The Lords provide a service of quick reincarnation rather than a necessity of life.

So can you put that in simpler terms?

Since I'm not sure which part you're not understanding, I'll both rephrase and explain the terminology.

Creational subgradients are effectively units used to measure the sliding scale between mortal and god. This sliding scale may also work between Daedric Prince and Lesser Daedra.

If I understand correctly, the offspring of the Aedra were of lower subradients than they were; in a way, through this process the Aedra devolved into the mortal races we know today. Or at least elves; for men I'm not completely sure. However, this "devolution" seems to stop when they reach the "mortal" level. Hence why we've had three eras worth of mortals remaining relatively the same. I suspect that perhaps there is a finite number of subgradients.

Eh. The word evolution is defined as a process by which something changes form to become something greater. Like pokemon. So de-evolution is changing form into something lesser. I understand biological, earthly evolution just fine, thanks, and I've said that it doesn't apply to Tamriel about 5 times in this thread already. All I was attempting to do is show that there is a change happening, just to a lesser form rather than a greater (more adapted, stronger, etc.) form.

As for subgradients:

The Et'Ada had 9000 power. They were immortal, infinitely powerful, and unbound.
The Ehlnofey had 7000 power. They were very powerful, though still limited and mortal.
The Aldmer had 1000 power. They were pretty powerful, but quite mortal and very limited.
The modern Elves only have 100. They are pretty average in terms of power, and mortality, and are bound completely.

Theres no way to go down from where we are.

There is actually. The pattern is a fractal. So you start from the top again with the smallest element doing what the top most element did. It should be the same except for scale.

The next step is a self examining mortal.

There is a floor, but that floor has a hole in it. That hole takes you back to the top.

But will we ever reach that step? It sounds like they're headed towards a horizontal asymptote. If what you say is true, from what I understand, the decrease would have slowed and slowed over time; enough that a a being at the end of the Third Era was able to do what Pelinal Whitestrake did, slaying a being of a higher subgradient level. Sure they were aided by his armor, but he was too.

Already have.

"Crimson Paladin encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Crimson, his soul and the soul of all things. Crimson, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Paladin, who was the sum of all the limitations Crimson would utilize to ponder himself. Crimson, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis."

Discussions with Crimson Paladin have new-awakened meaning.

Kudos to you and proweler! (also to Crimson and Paladin)

I'm sure that everyone is thinking the same way about de-volution and such - except my curiosity bump that just suggested that true greatness comes from learning - the more you learn the greater you are - so mankind evolves while others devolve

edit: Long love the counter-devolutionary tendency!!!

Except that doesn't make sense, to have all that de-evolving. And it only makes sense in terms of power or energy, which is relevant more or less only to a trophic pyramid, IMO. That doesn't account for or explain anything else, other than "power level."

You could argue that the men and mer of today are all millions of unique cells that have separated. Like, for instance: In the beginning, large clumps of cells break off, then those clumps split off. And each time, the power is also lost, because there is no connection, or collective body to harness it. Each new cell carries less and less. And like-wise, they each carry less "DNA" because they each steal a part of it when they leave.

But even with my pathetic attempt at a similar theory, which may even simply be an elaborate version of yours, I am too tired and sick to think, it still doesn't exactly account for the rest of, well, life in TES. If the aforementioned theory was the way "evolution" in Tamriel worked, that would exclude the possibility of reproduction. You also have the changing of some races into others, from Aedra and Daedra influences. As well as hybrids. The problem I have with the "de-evolution" theory you all have laid out is that it simply doesn't make sense. Even if TES is a fantasy world. Or maybe it is simply that...

Perhaps it is all relative to power. And in TES Power = the entity we call life. The reason I made a change just now is I was reminded of a Christian theory I heard once, where Adam and Eve were made perfect, and their children were less, and each new birth and generation gave rise to a lesser human. They had stated this would be one of the reasons people stopped living as long (in terms of the biblical belief, whether you personally believe or not). We have de-evolved into what we are now.

Applying that, the theory you all have mentioned could work, using that similar example. But I still wouldn't refer to it as power, lol. Moreso perfection. And power is only a side effect/symptom/w.e.of perfection.

But I am sick and about to throw up... Later.

Maybe the real world doesn't in fact have evolution and only in peoples minds does it exist therefore TES having evolution would be different than the real world :bonk:
Twilight Zone

Urk - happy ... well I enjoyed your write up

and yours too Twighlight

It doesn't make sense, because there isn't evolution in Tamriel. There is not. Reincarnation, yes.

Yeah 'evolution' in TES seems to happen through god influenced events rather than the gradual change over time.
However there simply hasn't been enough time for evolution to happen maybe if we had a longer time frame to examine we could see the adaptations over time. Also when it comes to sentient beings most adaptations become behavioural, as the need for physical changes reduces. Although the animals have to come from somewhere, so I've just managed to write all this inconclusively.

Yes the gods mess things up and evolution of large creatures takes a long time. For intelligent creatures it goes even slower as they take care of each other.
Best proof of evolution is probably that you have different types of horses, yes they are breed but it works the same way.

And even with horse breed that can be as much about intelligent influence, in fact it's a good metaphor for what happened to produce the races we see now, intelligent life ultimately beginning with the et'ada and the creation of Mundus and the other states of existence.

That is a silly statement, suggesting instead of evolution there is reincarnation. One doesn't negate the other. And yes, reincarnation does exist, but that doesn't exclude evolution from existing. The two are ENTIRELY separate and different concepts and subjects. Reincarnation refers to the spiritual, evolution refers to the physical. You can most definitely have both, evolution being the flesh surrounding the soul (reincarnation).





Why does evolution have to take so many years, to the point it seems like you're suggesting millions and billions of years, like our own? Evolution happens over the course of a generation. Evolution is not bound by time exactly, though it is dependent upon it. And it doesn't have to happen in TES over all those years, as the reason why it has been so long in our world, is what we started out as and what we are now. TES's creation of existence is different, and didn't start out as proteins or unicellular organisms that slowly and gradually changed. They, more or less, started out as multicellular organisms. They already skipped many steps that we've went through to become what we are now.

And yes, no one is doubting the influence of gods and their impact on evolution. In fact, it is a contributing factor, which is exactly like evolution. I don't think one should treat it exactly as this divine intervention, but more like a major and sudden change, which happens all the time in our world. Or act as if it is radiation, or many other factors that are similar and cause drastic changes almost instantaneously.

Evolution doesn't stop or slow down exactly due to people helping eachother. It does in a way, in the sense that what may cause that individual to die due to a characteristic being a disadvantage in the wild, is symbiotically made up for by another. Where normally this trait would be killed off due to it not being passed on, and now it is not, this doesn't slow evolution as it is still happening, whether or not if something will be passed on or changed. There's no time scale for it, other things will change. In fact, count that symbiotic relationship as a factor of evolution and an external progression towards "perfection", or adaption. That ability to have the relationship is part of evolution.

I wish to go TONS more into detail and reply more about this, but I have class. So I may edit this later or leave it be.

The world isn't physical, chief; it's spiritual.

It's not the real world. It's Tamriel. Everything is based on magic.

Spiritual or magic, whatever you call it (and please please please understand I am not trying to take away the magic.. People tend to misunderstand and miss that point. I want to keep the magic intact. What I am attempting to do is explain the process of magic and how it works.)

.. It doesn't change anything. Just because it is magic that means something cannot exist? Why can't the evolution be magical yet behave like our own? I can give examples of evolution with lore, proving the existence of it, without a doubt. Anyone can do it. Simply look at the fact of parent's to offspring. That's evolution.

On one of the spectrum, people place me, because I try to explain things using our natural world. But I don't dismiss the magic. To assume I do or assert that I am trying is naive in itself because it suggests I am ignorant of the fact that TES is a fantasy and fiction, the world being made with magic. No one can deny that. It is inescapable. When explaining things, this is at foremost my thoughts and consideration.

However, it doesn't stop me because I am not trying to destroy it or push it aside. If I say TES has evolution, it in no way even touches the magic in TES. It is instead of a part of it. Why cant the evolution behave the same, magically? What is the magical (yet natural, because in TES, it is natural) process they go through? The nature is magic. But what does that stop? No, Star's in TES cannot be giant balls of gas. Who is saying that?

And that's the other end of the spectrum, where, IMO, people are so caught up in it being magic, that to think of anything else is to try and destroy the content. And it's not that anyone when thinking of something is trying to destroy the magic, but explain it. Would having evolution in TES ruin it or lore? If you answer yes, I ask why you think so. Exactly at what point does it start to mess with magic and destroy lore?

And I don't know if I would call it spiritual. I've not seen it said to be so, but clearly I am not a lore master.

I am half-asleep, so I may come across, again, as ignorant or rude. I'm really not in a good place emotionally, etc. Yes, yes, I shouldn't bring my personal life here, lol. Sue me. But I stand by what I say. There shouldn't be any reason why evolution cannot exist, and it does exist, as it doesn't interfere with the magic or fantasy that is TES if you add those factors into the evolution, expanding it to fit the TES world.

"Tamriel" doesn't have evolution because "Tamriel" is not a planet. "Tamriel" is the backdrop for a very large story, and that story thus far has no use for evolution. To misunderstand this is to misunderstand the entire thing.

Well, Anthro, you're already making this argument in another thread, so I think it'd be best to accept that the majority of this community is of the opinion that quantifiable scientific processes aren't exactly in the spirit of the Elder Scrolls universe. You're free to maintain your own thoughts, of course, but arguing them here is not likely to get you very far.

While I applaud your desire for scholarship, I must agree with others here that evolution is the...well, the "boring" answer. While there is obviously some kind of inheritance at work, the process of evolution - even the anolagous rather than literal one you are proposing - doesn't mean anything to the narrative. Even if there are "examples" of it at work, they have in no way affected the story.

A successful approach to lore is a literary approach, as that is what has made this universe so impressive in the first place: its storytelling. To demand that evolution exists here is like demanding that evolution exists in Tolkien's work. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it really doesn't matter. Arguments insisting that it does only serve to inject an unnecessary element that only muddies the literature. This is why the majority of us here are keen on saying, "Nah. It's not here." -- because it doesn't need to be.