Does evolution work the same way in ES as it does in real life? I mean, the first elves were created about 5000 years ago, right? And then before that was the creation of mange'Ge and the et'ada from the interplay of Anu and Padomay. So perhaps are the aedra and daedra on the same plane of evolution as is Anu and Padomay? Because distance wise, who knows how many light years away the holes in Aetherius are. And Aetherius could very well be on a much high plane of evolution. Pure magic. And a higher plane of this could be whatever the Godhead is. Saying that it is called "the godhead" and that it is a giant who can't wake up from his dream, is merely our own personal representation of something we cannot begin to phatom only because we don't exist on that plane of existence and evolution, like in what happens in the book Flatlands. I've been watching a lot of videos by carl sagan and was wondering if Tes evolved that way. One video I liked is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0.

One thing I kind picture is that we would evolve to the state and dimension the aedra are at if you look at it from a much larger scale. You can look at it like an ant farm. Not all the ants will be able to make their way all the way to the top. So as in like, that's the existence of Nirn and it's inhabitants 300 billion years from now. The god head could be just a tiny person just like you and me who is trapped in an even bigger dream of a bigger god head on a much higher plane of evolution, over googol's and googlol's of years.

No one can answer your question. The answer only comes from personal questing.

Rainbow-people with pointed ears and black peple in palm tree limb skirts lends my self to the belief there is a very robust evolution going on here abouts. And cat people and lizard people and dog people and rat peple.



News FLASH(!): Tamriel is not so banol that Carl Sagan needs to be raised from deep 6 to flesh out the setting with his talking bones. How about let's discuss the priesthoods? Zenithar is portrayed as a male and female, a marriage of the concept of Mother Niben and Father Time. Time and water. Most precious of a man's commodities. Besides his balls.

Ah, you're a unifier. Can't be satisfied of a world where Intellectualism exists but not Science, can you?
I'm confused by your use of the word evolution, because you seem to use it in the sense of Darwin's Survival of the Fittest Evolution, but even a cursory glance at the evidence you've cited yourself pokes holes into that claim. And then you left-turn into Sagan... Yeah, please clarify your discussion topic.

That's one, very Elven, way of looking at things. A slightly more mannish perspective would be that because AE can't wake up, it dreams up a world and then fragments its mind into pieces and those pieces fragment until they reach a point where those pieces can wake up.

I'm just going to say it here: I'm sorry for whatever posts I made early this morning. Ignore them.

Ah, wait, I'm not sorry for them. They actually make sense. Ignore them anyway, though. Just like always.

Short answer: no.
Long answer: nooooope.

I think what I might have been asking is simply does life evolve the way it does in our universe. But then there is no evidence to support that there were ever prokaryotes or amino acids or any of the building blocks of life on Nirn that evolved. I know that the story starts with Anu and Padomay in the void and then the et'ada are made and then the mortals are made on the Mundus and they're already created as an intelligent species. Well I guess if it's all part of a dream of the godhead any ways, then evolution probably doesn't work like ours does, the way intelligence evolves through millions of years and stuff.
The aurbis doesn't work the same way as our universe either. The stars are just holes, which makes me wonder if the bigger they are, the more gravity they have. In that sense, if they had enough gravity, would they create blackholes in the outer edge of the aurbis where it leads into Aetherius?

The great thing about humans is that we don't really evolve that much. And we haven't evolved that much, even to MYA that include the timelime of Ardipithecus Ramidus and Kadabba. There have been significant changes, yes, but nothing cutting edge or defining aside from brain CC and etc. In fact, we "de-evolved" in some perspective, such as smaller canines and molars, whereas other modern apes, and those before, have all had large sets. This was predominantly for mating, however. Somewhere along the lines, our women decided "Hey, I prefer the bigger [censored]." instead "Oh my, look at his hands, he must have a big... set of canines."

Please excuse my reference to the size of the [censored], though I do mean it incredibly sincerely and without jest. It is a factor in modern homo sapien sapien (yes, I am using two on purpose) females on choosing a mate, and no it isn't pop culture or some fictitious saying that size does matter. Of course it matters, just it is vastly more complicated than that.

Oh boy... way to get off topic Professor Oak. (No, not like the Pokemon professor, lol. I say Professor Oak because I am aiming to get a Master's of Anthropology and perhaps teach, and my last name means oak in French.)

Where was I? Oh yes. Humans do not evolve the same as any other species on the planet. They rely on survival of the fittest, which ONLY means who is most adaptable to change, or suited for it. It is not related to intelligence or strength, etc. It is about adaptability. Humans tend to force our environment to adapt to suit our needs. It is cold? We make a coat. Turn up the heat in the house. We make cars, build bridges, destroy mountains, trees, etc. We force the world around us to evolve for us. Humans also evolve culturally, or rather because of culture, which is exclusive, mostly, to humans. One could argue certain examples, but I personally disagree.

And yet I am still off topic yet lingering around it, and I PROMISE!! I am getting to a point... soon.

Despite what I have said above, however... Humans STILL do evolve based on our environment. It still affects how we evolve and has been. You cannot beat nature, despite how we try. We are still animals on this planet, and subject to the laws of well... everything! There are influencing factors and variables that determine how we evolve, when, etc. Just the same like any other species. We do mutate.

And FINALLY to my point, which is NOT canon lore, but it is how I view it. All the races in TES, every species of animal, plant, etc evolve and has. The Mer came from one set of Elven ancestry, correct? They can acquire mutations and depending on their environment, change. Heck, the Khajiit and Argonian races alone are extraordinary in the way they're born, etc. And you have the Breton, which are a mix.

I, personally, believe that Tamriel evolves much like we do, but with even greater influence and contributing factors. For instance, the Orcs' evolution was forced by a Daedric Prince, if I remember correctly. And there quite possibly are different "tribes" or regional differences of Orcs or other races in Tamriel, where they have evolved differently. Altmer on Summerset Isle go to select inbreeding as to not pollute the population, which is something one does to avoid evolution, to so speak. Or rather, in their mindset, pollution.

I cannot compete with people like Lady Nerevar. Hellmouth, 1999, or any of the other, IMO, great lore-masters of TES. But I do feel that, despite being a fantasy world, at least in this regard, they still have that similar trait of evolution that our world does.

Good lord, you could at least have named some real lore masters in that list

I suppose I'll provide an actual answer. Evolution, in the sense of physical change, does exist in TES. However, it is not the time and environment based evolution of Earth, but rather one of belief. The Dwemer, Altmer, and Chimer count as different races not because they look different but because their cultural and religious beliefs are completely separate. Likewise, the Bosmer got short and stubby because of Yffre, not because they live in a forest (and even then, not all Bosmer look like that). The Dunmer, Khajiit, and Orcs were similarly changed by gods into their current form.

If anything, life is devolving. Subgradients of subgradients, and all that.

Lol, I said "IMO." Because to me, you, including others I listed, are some of them. I've been around for a long time, under a different name, however, and I have a HUGE list of people I call lore-masters on here, but you 3 stick out the most to me, or rather... my favourite posters.

Well you know how stars die and black holes form and stuff. The stars in Aurbis are holes, not balls of gas, so I'm thinking they might never evolve, unless there is some clue of evidence by the developers saying that the holes are expanding, which might actually be some good in-game lore theories by cosmologists and astronomers, of which I wish they had more in the games. If that theory were speculated on, the end result would be all the stars eventually expanding into each other and if gravity would be expanding as well, to like, quadrillions and quintillions of Gs, then the aurbis might implode in on itself. That probably doesn't have much validity to it as whose to say there is gravity where the stars are at, or if there is any breathable air in space, or even how far away the stars are actually. I don't even think Proweler could answer some of those questions since it's never been discussed in lore.

So you're saying that stars which aren't stars at all should behave like stars do? :wacko:

Compare Darwinian and Lamarkian evolution: With Darwinian peopple tend to feel that it's saying that it takes ages to happen and is basically a survivor only process. Lamark seemed to say that any change either physical or cultural was a step in evolution - and example of that would be a release of TES V

With Tamriel we have what might be taken to be mythopeic structures. We have spirits that are vast apparently splitting their 'substance' into smaller spirits = the et'ada creating new things or developing finer manifestations within their beings - which might be one way to see Daedric Princes

I thing the developers might talk about some form of mystical evolution when chatting in Darwinian terms - look at the change in the chimer to dunmer - it was a made thing by a daedric Prince ... but was that Darwinian or Lamarkian? I would have to wait for inspiration to really put my finger on it.I guess. There is also the change that happened when the et'ada 'devolved or followed that sub-gradient to become that ancient elves etc. The is the Monomyth and there are other books to take into account

Heh - remembered what I was thinking of: in the future it appears that you have an instance of a 'composite being' with a technica-sounding weapon = read the Love Letters who travelled back in time. Now is technology devolutionary or evolutionary? Is smaller worse?

Actually Lamark said that that characteristics acquired while an organism is alive can be passed on to the off spring. He was talking here about physical characteristics. For example, if taken to an extreme the son of a carpenter would be born with calloused hands. Which is nonsenses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism#Lamarckism_and_societal_change the idea that this effect might apply to culture was posited much later. It was not Lamarks own.



Neither Darwnin nor Lamark had anything to say about divine intervention. So the answer to the question of which type of evolution it would be, would be nonsensical either way.

Who knows?
Tell me there's actual lore on how life evolves in TES... You could guess anything, they will make the lifeforms they see fit. Don't ask how they eveolved!

Given there is no non-mythic information available about the natural history of Tamriel, there can be no evidence for any kind of Theory of Natural Selection. The myths, of course, point to a very different process.

Even if evolution did take place on Nirn as it does on earth, the planet hasn't been around for nearly long enough for any noticeable changes to take place.

Ow....that hurt.


Well, you neglect to mention the bretons. They're the only case, I am aware, of being isolated from everyone else and changing from men and mer to a half race. And that since races can inherit a small amount of their father's traits, there is potential, but it'll have to be another case of bretons.

Are they a "half race," thought? Certainly not in traditional DnD terms, as they still look very much human: no pointy ears, no yellow skin, not particularly tall. They are more adapted to magic, yes, but that is likely as much a cultural thing as it is a racial one. They are also hardly isolated, having been repeatedly occupied by or part of both Direnni and Skyrim territories. They are probably at the same level of racial blending as Colovian Cyrodiils (being both ethnically Nedic and Nordic) or the modern-day Camorans (being an Ayleid-Bosmer-Altmer conglomerate). All are certainly more genetically blended than someone like the Dunmer, but I would hardly classify them as a new 'race' in scientific terms. Its also not an example of evolution, though it does support genetics.


I insulted myself as much as I insulted you

[edit] Even if we stretch the facts and say that Tamriel has evolution, it certainly isn't "the same form of evolution that we do."

True, in-game they're hardly any different looking than your run of the mill imperial, but they were mistaken as being mer when the nords first came into contact with them, and the OB concept art makes them look more merish.

Though what I did say was a stretch in terms of evolution in RL to this game, but I felt it needed a mention.

True. I think this comes down to the false notion of "race." Its certainly a handy in-game definition, but the cultures within a province vary widely, and the genetic makeup of its inhabitants probably do as well. The Bretons in any of the games certainly don't look elven, and neither do those in the pocket guides (especially the 1st one, where they are something of a cultural and visual amalgam of Cyrdoiil, Hammerfell, and native). It is possible that the early breeding that the Nords came across were much more eleven in their features, and that this was lost with further breeding. It is also theoretically possible that the skinny, hairless, magic-using Bretons seemed elven (read: not human) to the burly, harry, 6 foot Nords. Either way, its not indicative of evolution (permanent environmentally driven change in one's genetics).

Cultural Evolution on the other hand...

Actually, that's interesting. Does Physiognomy play into this at all (physical features and on the cultural scale, temperament, indicative of things done/abilities)? Are, for instance, Bretons the way they are because it reflects some sort of cultural character trait of their's?

From the times ive spent in our deep libraries of lore I always find that man, this this case, imperial, isn't really primate like we are since apparently the invention of imperial is much like the creation of man. I would much appreciate our scholars correct me if I'm wrong.

No. Since, you know, real world science doesn't exist in Tamriel. There is change in groups and species over time, but not usually in the way it would happen in the real world. An example being that Orcs used to look and awful lot like Altmer. Rather than change due to environmental factors, the god they worshiped was eaten and [censored] whole. They changed with him.

You guys know that Zenithar, Lord of Commerce, is male and female. But did you know ol Zen fashioned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ApYxXEdPt4&feature=related? Lots of spirits go into one body, someone's gotta count. He's also the marriage god.

You follow what I'm saying? No? Well, he's boss of reproduction, in this Kalpa. Wealth isn't cash, Cyrod. It's your children.

Well, something exists very similar to much of real world science. Except it is augmented by magic and metaphysics, and can be further warped by magic.