they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

Fallout one and FO2 there are examples. I gave you one about The Pitt. Thing there are worse when we see it because the BoS went in and killed everyone there. Slavers moved in after.



To you but to others its not. Human history shows this. History is writen by the winners.

they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

they hired mercenaries to clear them out because all past contact with super mutants had made it very hard to believe there were peaceful and intelligent super mutants, its not the NCR's fault that this was the one exception to this rule.

I'd say they were more an Authoritarian State, with some fascist tendencies, like Spain under Franco than the Third Reich. The only real similarity between the Enclave and Third Reich is thier fixation on making the world a "better place" by murdering entire groups of people.

I'm not a soldier. Not a -real- one anyways... though not for a lack of desire.

I have a number of medical conditions, including limited vision at night and a severe hearing disability, which preclude me from any kind of service here.


My father is a retired U.S. Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant. I've grown up listening to a -lot- of very patriotic tough-guy talk. He thanks his lucky stars he never had to fight and kill... because he joined right in the middle of Veitnam... and there but for the grace of God seems to factor into his sentiments. I've listened to stories about his friends, who weren't so lucky. I've listened to stories about his father, who was also a soldier (during the first or second world war, I can't quite remember)...

The military runs through my veins... whether I go out there and fight and kill or not. I have a -lot- of family in the armed forces... a -lot- of friends off fighting in foreign lands... and I'm pretty good with a gun for a guy who can't hardly hear a thing.

I -fail- to see what difference it makes, however. It doesn't prove your point... or make your beliefs any more valid than mine. It just means that I'm not one of those brave souls out there defending your right (and by this, I mean -human- right... as I believe having an opinion is one of those things that ought to be afforded to all people by la and order) to tell me that all of our rights are god given, and for that fact... I am filled with a great deal of bitterness.


One thing I know, however... and it's easy enough to learn through stories alone... is how quickly those 'human rights' of yours turn off just as soon as the other guy has a gun.


And I stand by my point... you don't make an argument. You just assume you're correct... and hide behind flawed logic. I read your post. I'm calling you -wrong-... and I defy you to prove to me that you're not. Prove to me that your human rights somehow exist without law and order... without someone, somewhere, enforcing them under penalty of death or imprisonment.

You do that, and by George... I'll retract every word I said and eat my hat. But you won't.


You're going to say the same thing you already said: "human rights are not given by law or man, they are endowed by their Creator, and it doesnt matter if you believe in God or not, someones creator is just the miracle of life if you dont. what some manipulative leader writes on a paper doesnt matter."


And unless I'm mistaken... you think the 'miracle of life' is going to defend your human rights?


Tell that to the next homeless man you see, who gets spat on every day by people with MORE than enough money to provide him with food and shelter and sustenance. Tell that to the women in other nations, being brutalized by their own husbands, sons, brothers, and government... because there, they're not even considered the same -species-.

Your human rights are just as arbitrary and fictitious as any law... which is why they call the process which enforces them 'Arbitration'.


So, from now on... I'm not going to debate with you on the 'rights' of men. We disagree. I've made my case... you've put up a smoke-screen. We'll just have to agree that neither of us are going to see eye-to-eye.

Now, as I -obviously- read your post... I think you probably owe me an apology. I do believe you accused me of being illiterate.

What you really meant to say was that I disagree with you, and you don't -like- it.

For that, I say: That's your right. You can call it god given, or provided by the 'miracle of life' or whatever you please... but it's my right to disagree with you... and I take it very personally when people turn a moral debate into a personal attack.

I attacked your -reasoning-. You attacked -me-.

That's where the difference resides. And that's why you and I won't be debating in the future.

It wasn't the NCR....it was some rich NCR citizen, probably a Brahmin Baron, who sent in mercs to provoke a incident that could be used to pressure the NCR into "pacifying" Jacobstown....probably so they could walk in and seize the area for another ranch. If the mercs are dealt with peacefully, the NCR leaves Jacobstown alone. The story doesn't give you the option, but I'd bet if the NCR found out someone was trying to manipulate it into squashing a peaceful mutant settlement so thier land could be stolen for a Brahmin ranch they would probably do to them what happens to the Van Graffs and Crimson Caravans if NCR finds out about thier double-dealing.

Not their fault? Not their fault? You're contradicting your own arguments now, a moment ago you just argued that killing is NEVER justified except for self defense. Now you're making excuses for the NCR because they had a "storied" history with the mutants. The NCR had every right to believe there were intellegent and peaceful mutants, they had incountered them before, they just chose not to believe they were there or even existed. Do you see the flaw now?

The same arugment you have made for the NCR and brotherhood could be made for the Enclave. Watch. "The Enclave found it very hard to believe that there could be intelligent and peaceful mutants and humans out in the wastes, so they chose to get rid of them." So I guess the Enclave really isn't evil then huh?

Thats where this sort of idealistic nonsense gets you. Into logical flaws.



and Colonel T, for what its worth I agree completely with your arguements and what you have said in this debate. Well said indeed.

Edit:

I can't recall anything regarding that really. In any case they are still NCR and still acting under NCR authority.

I like the NCR... I think they're probably the second-best equipped faction to bring some semblance of civilization to the wastes... but where The Enclave reminds one of the 50's-era nationalist pride and Americana we all know from pop-culture... then the NCR reminds me entirely of a modern-day United States... in which bureaucracy and corruption have entirely permeated the government and its branches.

Each faction has its faults... but it's naive to think that SOMEONE higher-up didn't condone the 'get rid of the mutants' plan.

Hell, that 'rich farmer' guy was probably one of the Congressmen or Senators!

NCR got along with Mutants in the Past. Ghouls are in the army and so were super mutants in FO2. NCR also hired mercenaries to attack vault city. Killing someone because they are "mutated" like the Lyons did at the pitt is pretty much what the Enclave was doing



Well said. :foodndrink:

Good and Evil are all how you look at it.
History is writen by the winners they decide was good and evil.

"War. War never changes. The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from it lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into and economic superpower but war never changes."

If you see them as evil find but don't get upset if others don't. It's a game, alternate timeline and a very different world

Yep. Agreed. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. It depends on what pespective you take regarding things such as what the Enclave is doing.




Indeed. We need to toast the good Colonel for his excellent speech. :foodndrink: hear hear!

Ahem, glorious? Are you kidding me? The pre-war US was awful:

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pre-war

-Penguin

I believed this was a sign that the NCR turned against supermutants some time after F2... You can't meet a single NCR supermutant in Vegas, and with amount that was in the Master's Army there should have been atleast one unit made up of only supermutants... Why wouldn't they believe that they were kind and intelligent, why would they kick Marcus and his followers out of Broken Hills, why would no mutants be in their army? That is the information I have gathered to support my theory...

Worse than the wastes?

thats an argument that has been made but is not one I suscribe to. I think that the Pre-war world was much better than the post-war one.

There is no such thing that all Black vs White in the Fallout verse, Every faction has their pros and cons, saying that the Enclave are evil is like saying that the NCR are good :whistling:

History isn't written by the Winners, it's written by the literate.

Why else was it called the dark ages?...

Because they wiped out the Illuminati?


Personally, I like the Enclave -because- they're so poorly portrayed thus far. They're a faction with so little substance and backstory, that anyone who wants to change them... or their motives... or define them in some light other than Generic Baddie Number 2... is pretty free to do so as they please. There's so much room for growth and expansion that they're almost the perfect faction.

But meh, that's my two cents.

ok, for the last time, i understand human rights are not always respected or enforced and the point i am making is IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY ARE RESPECTED OR FOLLOWED THEY ARE STILL THERE WHICH IS WHAT MAKES IT WRONG WHEN PEOPLE VIOLATE THEM. maybe that is straight forward enough for the limited intellect some of you seem to have.

True. New Vegas tells us that the Enclave is made up of all kinds of people like any faction. Many that were doctors and scientists tried to join NCR. FO2 you can talk a man in the Rig into seeing how the Enclaves plan is "Evil" and he will help you destroy the Enclave. Fallout 3 has Augustus Autumn that goes against Eden because he does not agree with his plan.

when were not talking about individuals but the groups plans in general was what i thought. some good people were nazi's in germany, but the nazi party was still evil. exact same concept.

Going off what you said though about factions being "evil" when they violate human rights (i.e. killing), I would ask you to please name some factions that do not fall under this defined category of "evil".

What makes the Enclave different? Why single them out?

Talk to thier leader Norton, he'll tell you. And using your logic the NCR is responsible for the destruction of Nipton since Caesar is a NCR citizen.



The NCR reminds me of today's California government......a fascinating mixture of greed, incompetence, and delusional thinking....the main difference being Gov. Moonbeam cannot send the CHiPS into Nevada to plunder it for Sacramento's benefit or corral up the people who moved out to escape the BS and continue to milk them for tax revenue. You may be right about the rich farmer being a Legislator....but more likely he just owns one or more. A Brahmin Baron doesn't have the time to sit in Shady Sands and schmooze, after all. But looking at the extreme incompetence of the NCR effort in the Mojave I can believe the government as a whole has no idea what is up. Just look at how they spent a fortune in caps to rebuild the cement factory at Boulder City, re-open the quarry at Sloan and restore the machinery to operation, and restore the rail links from NCR to both...to provide concrete they desperately need to maintain the dam and fortify critical areas...then they let a few deathclaws render the whole thing useless by moving into the quarry so the miners have to leave. Not even the competent officers have a clue this is happening...you'd think Col. Moore would wonder why the concrete for repairs at the Dam suddenly dried up, but nope she's too busy plotting to exterminate every group in the Mojave on her enemies list....never mind that she's probably responsible for them hating the NCR to begin with.