I never said you were wrong about that Tiberius. I merely said I couldn't remember it, its been a while since I played that mission. :wink_smile:

But now on to your example. How is Caesar an NCR citizen? He's the freaking leader of the invading forces. Maybe once he was a "citizen" when he was with the Followers, but certainly no more. Thats not my logic at all. What Im saying is that the NCR was responsible for hiring the mercenaries because a promient citizen of the NCR, and someone who is likely within the "higher-ups" circle in their government (or at least has weight with making decisions), ordered the instigation of a war between the NCR and the Mutants. The NCR was looking for an excuse to git rid of those mutants because frankly, the NCR and the "baron" want that land, and skirmishing between the mercs and the mutants would be a perfect Casus belli for their soldiers and anyone who has sympathy for the mutants.

Oh? Well... here's something for ya, then!

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Westin

Councilman Westin, which if you read up on the NCR over there on the Wiki you will learn Councilman, Governor, Senator, and Congressman are all titles which seem to be used arbitrarily, was not only a Brahmin Baron... but a man powerful enough to threaten the Bishop family in New Reno.

I think Brahmin Barons have -plenty- of political clout in the NCR, not to mention being the wealthiest of the wealthiest.

No?

I never said they didn't have plenty of clout....from what I understand of the backstory they are basically the power behind Kimball. He lets them do what they want and they put thier clout behind keeping him in office. But I haven't seen anything to back up that the mercs were hired by the NCR government.....if harassing the mutants was a NCR op it probably have been a job that Col. Moore would offer the Courier, either on orders from Oliver or as a "request" from someone with connections with Kimball himself, like Gunderson. But then, as bloody minded as she is, she is still competent enough to see that this isn't the time to be fighting with mutants and shelved it for later....they aren't on the Hit List for "For the Republic!", and they are potentially a lot more dangerous than the Kings or even the Khans.

Ah! Well that seems like a fair enough point.


Still, there's no saying that he -isn't- some member of the government either. It's a mystery which is never revealed... and so we can do little more than speculate as to whether it was some secret government element or a more private vendetta. You do raise some interesting ideas, though. If the mutants being exterminated was a part of some shadow government within the NCR... then what you would effectively have is the NCR's version of the Enclave!

Which is a frightening thought...

Well I may be late for the party, but I want to chuck my 2 cents in also

Just a heads up my post will be a NV spoilerfeast...

Are the Boomers evil for shelling random folks who get to close? I think the Boomers are the second evilest faction in NV next to the Fiends. They are bottom of the line mad as hatters. The lot of 'em.

The Brotherhood are good? Eh? I assume you have yet to finish Veronica's quest chain. Hell even if you didn't I am sure you did the quests for Helios One? You know where they lost the battle, and pulled a bad sportsman move? I would not put it past them that if they where going to wiped out to not try to take EVERYONE with them. That is not defending, that is revenge.

NCR are blessedly good? Remember Bitterspring? REMEMBER BITTERSPRING!!!

Human rights mean little to nothing in the wastes.

Lets say you are holed up in a house with three family members, and two friends. Food starts to run out. You go out scouting for food, but find nothing. You start to get worried there may be nothing else out there. You push on just a little farther, and you come up to another house, and see two people inside eating with food up on the shelves.

Are you telling me you would let your friends, and family starve to death? I know I wouldn't.




NOW ON TOPIC...

I always kinda thought the Enclave looked confederate'ish also. However I thought it was done that way to seem... kinda ironic as they where trying to reunite America.

the unclave are bad, they terrorize people, and kidnap people. they actully seem to kill more people than save them, but the brotherhood have the right idea they make sure technology doesnt fall into the wrong hands. Example- Enclave. they save people from themselfs and just from keeping people from getting technology, therefore keep people from creating a bloodbath. like the chinese did before the war. the enclave are making the same mistakes that the chinese did before the war, and that is-getting greedy for technolgy, then getting worried will take the tech and end up killing everybody, dont believe me that the enclave are greedy? take the jefforson momorrial (water purifier) war for an example. the brotherhood was rebuillding it to pass out water to everybody in the waste. but the enclave, they were going to poison the water and kill everybody with The FEV virus. thankfully (if you wernt working for the enclave) the lone wanderer aqired the FEV virus and gave it to The Elder. then the scribes scaned it then destroyed it. my point is, the enclave are bad people. the brotherhood may take tech from people, but they do it for a reason unlike the enclave. :tops:

The Enclave don't care about technology, they want to rid the world of the genetically inferior mutants to rebuild the American Government and therefore society. Project Purity was being completed by Rivet City scientists under Brotherhood protection only they left and the Project was shut down for 20 years. The Brotherhood intervened because they feared what the Enclave was planning, then they kept the Purifier for themselves, even driving it's original creator, Dr Li, away with their interfering, they don't even really guard the caravans and let poorly trained Rivet City security do it.

The original Brotherhood out west like in New Vegas save people from themselves by taking the tech not the Enclave.

Yes but they kinda do it a weird way

The Enclave doesn't have the same views on technology as the Brotherhood. They care about it, but not in a fanatical "OMG WORSHIP DAT!!" cultish manner. Whats the biggest difference between the Enclave and Brotherhood views though? The Enclave develops technology and does research and development on a scale that the brotherhood could never even come close to matching. The Brotherhood also doesn't give a crap about technology that doesn't blow things to kingdom come while the Enclave develops and studies medicine.

The Brotherhood sit in their bunkers and stagnate like dead fish while saying "HURR HURR WE GOTS LAZERS," and that sort of thinking isn't going to get them anywhere in terms of truly helping humanity. The Enclave does what it needs to survive and guarantee the future of the human race and the United States of America.

I believe it to be a private initiative because there are no repercussions with NCR for putting a stop to it...not to mention there is no repeat attempt. Of the senior NCR officials in the Mojave, only Moore or Oliver would have green-lighted an op like this...I cannot see Crocker, Hanlon or Hsu ever countenancing such an act...and they react to defiance by lashing out at the offender. If Moore was behind this, I'd expect an assassination attempt or a curt summons to the Dam to be personally threatened with "consequences" if I don't stop interfering. Lacking that....I infer this is someone's private agenda. As Brahmin Barons are known for hiring mercs to force little people off thier land so they can expropriate it, one of them is the likely culprit. It could be about bigotry towards mutants, but that whole area looks like prime real estate and perfect for ranching or agriculture so I suspect the bottom line is greed, pure and simple.



You don't want to go there. HQ will be sending a briefing officer to explain to you precisely why. It's fortunate indeed that your clearance is as high as it is, Colonel.

I believe I got negative NCR reputation for killing the mercenaries outright.

Well, nobody's perfect. It's just some are less perfect than others.

Best definition of the West BOS ever....

and thats exactly who I had in mind :foodndrink:

An area controlled by the Enclave seems to me to be the equivalent of a land run by dike Cheney.

Try to no post anithing politics related

The Enclave is a bunch of fascist idiots that attempt to commit global genocide, because they got a butt-hurt experience with a few super mutants, but fail twice and get stopped by a tribal and an incompetent moron who stumbles out of his vault giving accurate descriptions of daddy (middle-aged guy).

nice facts to back up your bs, oh wait...

:lmao:

And I also like your avatar.

Err... no they're not. What experience with Super-Mutatns are you talking about? At the Mariposa Military Base? They were already there for the FEV for the Project anyway. It really pisses me off that people just think the Enclave is racist or something. The people in Vault City have been exposed to radiation from a Nuclear Power Station in their water supply, there are now reports of chromosomal damage and fertility problems, the people of the wasteland, decendants of the survivors of the Great War, will have similar genetic mutations. The Enclave are genetically superior and see wiping the slate clean easier than trying to rebuild America with the mutants roaming the land, they are some of the last remaining humans with un-damaged gene's and cannot risk being comprimised. Not condoning genocide just trying to make peopl see that the Enclave do have motivations and justifications and aren't just evil. Oh, and until Fallout 3 the Enclave were led by a democratically elected President so Fascist.



Poor Writing, 'nuff said.

He was joking about the supermutant part, they are racist because instead of living away from them or simply not reproducing with mutants they slaughter them, and it was not poor writing, they are just a very delicate organization...

I would also argue that during Fallout 3, they were lead by a President with legal authority to take command through emergency powers delegated to him by Continuity of Government plans.

So yeah, not fascists.



He didn't seem like he was joking to me, I think he was referencing Mariposa.

But more importantly, how the hell does that make them racists? Mutants aren't a "race" of humanity. So they can't be "racists". Not only that, but how can you "reproduce" with mutants?? They're pretty much all sterile. Are you suggesting they make more of them by "reproducing" with them?

I covered why they are "racist", the people of Vault City had genetic mutations brought on by a near by Nuclear Power Station which had only been affecting them for a few years or so. The survivors of the Great War would have experienced massive amounts of radiation and would have mutated similarly and then passed the traits onto their off spring, in addition to Vault City's lower fertility rate and chromosomal damage other affects of radiation can cause children to be born with defects and such, like all those poor people from Chernobyl. Mutants does not refer to Ghouls or Super but to everyone. As for poor writing, the US Government didn't notice an Oil Tanker dock at an Oil Rig, dispite the fact that they had taken many precautions to make sure that that specific tanker could not reach them, I call [censored].



Not Super Mutants, mutants as in the regular people of the wasteland, and I forget we went through all that stuff about the Presidential Line of Succession.

Okay that makes a bit more sense, I was just thinking since Marisposa was mentioned that Sebor was talking of "2nd generation mutants" . However that still doesn't make them "racists". "Elitists" (but for a good reason) prehaps, "racists" no.

The US Government had the Oil Rig their for themselves, that's how they planned to survive, so your response make absolutely no sense...

And yes I was also talking about regular people in the wasteland with minor mutations, which would destroy the Enclaves 'purity'