The Chosen One arrived at the Oil Rig on an Oil Tanker designed to dock with it both from the same company Poseidon Energy, the Enclave had gone as far as to remove the activation FOB and destroy the Navigational Computer precisely so that nobody could use that very same tanker to reach the Oil Rig, how does an Oil Tanker dock at an Oil Rig and nobody know about it or investigate it when it docks?

Why put the sarcastic quotations marks around "purity", they have thier reasons for not wanting the mutants around, not just blind bigotery.

didn't yall know?
secret Nazi scientists sponsored obsidian and Bethesda to make the enclave like
that
its a conspiracy duuude!!!
and the colonel is Hitler
while Eden is Stalin
history all over again
*joking around

This

Double post

You seriously fail history if the only thing that reminds you of the Enclave is Nazism. Because, there has been a horde of governments in human history with far more resemblance to the Enclave. Or, you might as well think how the Enclave would NOT remind you of the Nazis...

1) The Enclave kills people based on their genetic structure. They have set a standard of human, and at least officially swear to protect anyone who meets this standard, no matter where they are from. A human by the Enclave's definition is not to be taken for granted - living too long out in the Wasteland may end you up being treated as a mutant, even if The Enclave recognizes your pure origins. The Nazis, on the other hand, killed humans who they viewed as a threat to their own race or an obstacle in paving a way for the Aryan race. These humans were considered sub-humans, although there were many types of human they knew were different but were spared, or even supported, as they were not viewed as threat. That said while the Enclave exterminates everyone who aren't of their own folk, the Nazis exterminated "only" those who they felt was necessary to destroy.

2) The Nazis had a strong leader cult and openly admitted that they were nothing like the government before them. The Enclave, on the other hand, tries to convince people that they are the very same democratic pre-war government.

3) The Nazis sought to conquer, the Enclave seeks to restore (although even the Nazis were partially motivated by restoration of old glory, up until the point they achieved it)


Some three points.

Love the sugar coating there. The Enclave seeks to "restore" the world by killing all those who aren't "pure-strain humans". It's Fascism, no matter how you look at it.

How? How is it Fascism no matter "how I look at it"? Please explain and don't just claim things. Fascism is not specifically tied to "genocide" you know.

I find it really hard to believe that there is no other way to look at the Enclave besides your way, when there are cleary many people who look at it differently.... :spotted owl:

Yeah, please read some of the responses to you very own posts at the top of the page.

How would they have known? It's not like their airtight oil rig had any windows, and I doubt they had a surveillance team watching a radar for that darn oil tanker 24/7. In addition I doubt anyone in the Enclave expected anyone outside of the organization to be able to restore the tanker's navigation system, obtain fuel for it, and recover the FOB from the Commander at Navarro.

I know it was airtight and had no windows, when you dock at the Oil Rig at the end of the cutscene the terminal in the Tanker Bridge says "Welcome to the ENCLAVE", in reference to the fact the Enclave calls it, well, Control Station ENCLAVE. I always assumed it connected to a computer system or something but come on, how could nobody not notice? More concrete evidence, the Commander at Navarro from whom you aquire the FOB:

1. If you killed him and Navarro for it there is no excuse for them not knowing, but what with Navarro in F:NV probs non-canon.

2. You sneak it off him I think but very hard.

3. You can speech him for it and he says {111}{}{The Fob is in the locker over there. Have the duty officer contact me once it's secured. Dismissed!}

Unless it was stolen from the Commander, surely when nobody reported to him about it he would have become sucpious. They purposefully nullified the tanker as a threat so they clearly thought there was a risk, but I will agree, Enclave security was rather lax aboard the Rig. Arrogance was always the Enclave's debilitating flaw.

I was under the impression that the oil tanker computer was just telling you that you've arrived at your destination. As for nobody not noticing the docking, as I said before the oil rig is airtight and I doubt the Enclave is constantly watching any radar systems for approaching vessels considering that they had automated defenses that destroy any unauthorized vessels.

The Enclave probably didn't even consider the possibility that a mainlander would be able to operate the tanker and know what was required to reach the rig in one piece after what they did with the Nav system and FOB, and rightfully so; the only reason the Chosen One is able to reach the rig with the tanker is because an Enclave deserter told him exactly what was needed and how to get it.

It directly references the destination as the ENCLAVE though...

The Tanker was tagged as authorised as it was a Poseidon Energy vessel and the Enclave knew that. If they had wanted to nullify it as a threat they would have removed it from the IFF system in addition to taking the FOB.

I'm pretty sure the tanker's automated navigation system knows that it's docked at the oil rig since that's where you told it to go.



I doubt they wanted to nullify it as a threat; they probably wanted to keep it around in case of an emergency. The FOB would have probably been destroyed as opposed to being locked up in Navarro if they really didn't want that oil tanker to ever return.

EDIT: Double post.

My point is that it wouldn't have been callled the ENCLAVE or Control Station ENCLAVE or whatever before the war would it?



I supposed as much too about the FOB, it's not like they'd be able to build something like that again for a long time. In all honesty I've forgotten what we were dicussing :tongue: I suppose the fact of the matter is that they didn't notice the Valdez docked and in any case it's all ancient history now. Oil Rig and the 'clave are dead, no one left except us Remnants' now... :violin:

what would they need it for though? Their vertibirds would have been the primary "emergency situation" contigency plan.

I agree with The Enclave, I just find it hard to believe that a freaking hulking oil-tanker was able to slip in undetected.



*sniff* thats the saddest thing I've read all day and is sadly true from what I've seen. :cryvaultboy:

But I still hold out hope for a small Enclave victory somewhere

That was never confirmed one way or another, so your guess is as good as mine. :shrug:

The map files for the Enclave base call it "oilrig"...

If the Enclave reformed some of it's darker facilities and tried to recruit outsiders, then I might support it.

What do you expect, the Enclave were basically black-ops Halliburton and Blackwater/Xe rolled into one.

This being the foremost Enclave discussion topic I thought I would re-post what is essentially the culmination of my every gripe that I can remember for the Enclave in Fallout 3. I you have any answer and come backs to what I think I would love to her them, seriously, nobosy want's to make the Enclave make sense more than me.

------

Which of course leads me to the Enclave and how they shouldn't have been there, now I have discussed many times with some of the other Enclave supporters on here such as Lt. Andronicus about how the Enclave chain of command works and how Eden could be President but I'm still skeptical.

Eden's Presidency

As I often mention, one of the non-canon endings for the NCR was that it became a facsist state and that the Enclave survivors were found a new home in their ranks, now whilst that is non-canon the variable is the NCR, not the Enclave. If the NCR had become this state then the Enclave would have collapsed into it, as it didn't the Enclave held together probably out of a need to survive until, in what I'm sure would have been there final ending in a Fallout 3-less world, the NCR attacks Navarro and whatever trace of the Enclave as an organisation is eliminated. Of course, now we are blissfully aware that a ZAX Super Computer became self-aware and became a member of the US Cabinet so after the destruction of the Oil Rig it is assumed that Eden was the most senoir surviving link in the chain and became Acting President of the United States (the concept I base my on character in the RPs' on). Now I'm English, I have very little knowledge outside of wikipedia how the US Government works and whilst the Enclave did streamline and remove (maybe just temporarily, we are taking about centuries of history) the US Government to fit their new vastly reduced scale could something like Eden become President? He is niether a citizen or an advlt over the age of 35.

Presentation

The Enclave in Fallout 3 is a purely military organisation, now whilst in Fallout 2 everyone got rudimentary military training they were still civilians. Pale people milling around machines and in recreation rooms clad in numberless jumpsuits (and they were tagged as Enclave Citizen so they aren't just soldiers off duty), some even with ball-gags and blow-up dolls in their inventory, where did they all go? In 30 years there aparently legions of young soldiers to die but where are the civies? Now maybe Raven Rock is too small & crap and it is definately clear that it was bigger than we saw but why? Vault like apartments, families, civilians, children, all must have been in Raven Rock somewhere and it would have done something to elevate Fallout 3's lack-luster, often money based, moral system. I remember somebody saying that it would be boring to see such places, this was a while ago and maybe on NMA but even still, [censored] that guy. The Enclave aren't just a military organisation, they were democratic in Fallout 2 even if laws on the max number of terms in office didn't exist. Eden was President for 30 years, nobody saw him, there were no elections and nobody knew he was a machine? Now I think it was Lt. Andronicus again who said that maybe they had fake elections and such with Eden simply swapping persona, but to this I say:


?Did nobody quetion that there was apparently one person on the opposite coast who became President and ordered them all there? If someone is thinking maybe they just went and Autumn Senior didn't mention Eden, then what was the justification? If he was legitimate then why did they feel the need to lie?

?Why would Autumn go along with a persona swap, as he says "The chain-of-command must be followed", why would Autumn go along with the deception of the Enclave, why would he betray all those people? If Eden did something like this surely it would warrent his dismissal and probabe deletion, Autumn has the code, they could just move.


Tactics

Why did what is often said to be the most advanced faction in terms of technology (except we now have the Blade Runner rip-off) and what is most definately the US Army, consider just flinging troopers at Liberty Prime's feet and sending Vertibirds to hover in front of it's face to be an effective stratergy? The Vertibirds are shown doing missile strikes and carpet bombs and of course, walking prototype robots are known for their structural stability, shoot the back of the [censored] things legs with missiles like when the crane hoisted into the air and over the Pentagon (comically in about 5 seconds flat too). On the topic of "Take it back" the Enclave have artilery shooting at the bridge, why don't they just shoot the Pentagon it's right there next to bridge, shell your opponents base! They obviously took the BoS as a threat by then as they had rolled out all the force-field barriers, cannon-fodder checkpoints and invisible artilery to stop them. The fact that they didn't just use Bradely-Hercules to bomb them back to the stone-age could be explained by them not having it lines up or lost connection so I will let that one off. But the checkpoints why, little barricades of troopers, what where they supposed to be, surely the men their would require supplies and replacing overy day as there are neither beds and food/water at any camp outside of the First Aid Box at Rock Breakers Last Gas, about 5 actual "camps" in actual strategic locations would have been good and made a lot more [censored] sense for one thing.

Numbers

See the non-canon ending again, this means that the Enclave lacked the numbers to survive as an organisation and probably as a civilisation and, hell depending on how puritanical you are about such things, even as a species. Now they all get called to Raven Rock and in 30 years there are actually droves of young, serving age men and women ready to be cannon-fodder for Liberty Prime; there are only two people in the game who are probably in their +50s, Autumn and a scripted Enclave Officer who emerges from that first Vertibird you see when your down in the intake pipe (before hope is crushed). The Enclave can field so much it's ridiculous, where do all the Vertibirds come from, it is never actually specified I don't believe that the ones even in Fallout 2 were of post-war construction and now they have been revieled to be prototypes so what gives. The blueprints were only at Navarro for maintianence purposes on existing birds, yet by Fallout 3 they have so many it's ridiculous (I put there new appearance soley down to artistic change). Broken Steel kicks them when their down again, but what pisses me off more than anything is another one of those non-canon specific, the Enclave are not the vairiable things, Lyons says after returning from AAFB and inquiring further about the Enclave that he "wouldn't be suprised if they returned again" and that the camps could take months to learn of AAFB's destruction. Wtf. Do radio communications not exist like, do the never eating, sleeping troopers in the wastes never question the fact that nobody is telling them what to do, or bringing them ammo and supplies, seriously, months!?! After all that they didn't even have the [censored] courtesy of leaving them alone, they'll return someday, yeah I bet they [censored] will. Not to mention the fact that not only the whole DC bull-[censored] but apparently they also retained a garrison at Navarro (because ED-E was sent their from AAFB, shortly before the deployment of Hellfire Armour so that the scientists there could continue his work), the loss of which I hypothesise was classified for moral much like early power armour, and now they have a Chicago outpost which was mentioned in ED-E's logs...

Hang on, ED-E was built at Adams Airforce Base and sent from there to Navarro, stopping for repairs at Chicago. That means that if Fallout 3 didn't exist then neither would ED-E or hell Eyebots in general which i quite like, which also means that Chicago wouldn't exist and neither would Navarro courtesy of the NCR. Does that mean in some horrific, Obsidian ret-con way that Fallout 3 actually saved the Enclave?

My biggest gripe with the Enclave's presentation in Fallout 3 is that the human element from Fallout 2 and New Vegas is completely absent. It was a lot easier to relate to the Enclave in FO2/NV because you got to talk to quite a few members and realize that they're people too, and many of them aren't all that bad. In Fallout 3 they're pretty much all mindless killing machines or jerkface heads.

I agree with most of your points though.

Exactly, I feel personally that the Remnants were overdone if anything, remember all the great Enclave Patrolmen quotes from Fallout 2 (I posted them in a similar discussion somewhere) like "Hey Louie, ever seen what one of these does to soft-tissue?" and "As a loyal soldier of the Enclave I'm going to have to kill you. Hope you don't mind." They were arseholes, that's why I like Moreno and his lines are just the best, thirty years ago he would have killed you and laughed, now he's just an old man, I find it kind so facinating to hear Enclave soldiers talking about living in the NCR. Don't get me wrong, the Remnants were absolutely supurb but I thought the number of them who were basically "meh" on the actual objectives of the Enclave were too many. I wanted them to be all like Moreno, I just love every word that man said, all of them, hell my favourite line in the game is in my sig.

In Fallout 3 I always saw them as Storm Troopers from Star Wars not just cliche villians, don't know why I made that distinction, maybe it's just the hopeless bias against them by their writers coupled with there exhaduratated inefficency and poor weapons.

I thought the Remnants were fine. They weren't "meh" towards the Enclave's goals per se; they just disagreed with the organization's methods. I think all of the Remnants wanted a more civilized post apocalyptic America, but most of them found killing civilians and "cleansing" the entire world a tad bit extreme.

Like you said, you and I went into this in quite a bit of detail and (being an Eden supporter) Im glad that you recognize that there is at least some legitimacy for his presidency :icecream: (at least how I've thought it out anyway). Now as to your question about could the US. government have something like Eden as President. In real life? No. I don't think there is any senario where a computer could become the acting President (as of now). However. In the game universe is this possible? yes. Keep in mind that most of we Americans would also never believe that anything similar to the Enclave could exist or be our government (ie. a "shadow government"). Put into the context of the game then and given the extreme tendency of the Enclave to follow protocols and "chain of commands" it makes sense that a nationalistic organization like the Enclave of the United States could keep a ZAX as President, if only to satisfy the "citzen control of armed forces policy" as well as COG plans.



hmm the "persona swap" theory is an interesting one but I don't think it was me who suggested that (don't want to take credit for others ideas) . My theory has always revolved around the COG plans, which would be inacted in a dire emergency for the government (ie. the entire or part of the chain of command was broken). The U.S. has never had to face such a monumental disaster (god forbid we ever have to) so there's really anything to compare it to. I would guess that given the Enclave's extreme nationalist tendencys. Eden's "emergency powers" presidency of 30 years might not be such a long period of time for the in-game universe. But I don't know. :shrug:



I completely agree with everything you said under this category.


I sorta agree with most of your arguements here but I'll comment on a view things.



I think was referring to camps outside of DC or "outposts" (bunkers probably and such). That the Enclave had established besides AAFB. (otherwise yeah, I wouldn't understand how those little "temp" camps in the DC could last for any length of time.)



I would say yes. The orginal develops never planned for anything to happen to the Enclave past the oil rigs destruction (I think they were going to have a lost Enclave patrol in VB but thats pretty much it). Fallout 3 revived the Enclave and I guess did "save" them, and despite Fallout 3's treatment of them as "laser fodder", it did give them an opportunity to shine again.