The more the world is open and full of choices, the more radiant AI you need to make to make it realistic enough.
Bethseda will give us hell lots of options, so the AI will be much much overworked than in the witcher 2.
whys that? because for every choice you make there is an amount of AI you got to make for making it look real enough.

(all the numbers i say bellow are absolut [censored] but they are just for scaling stuff)
Now lets say that for every 1 choice you make in the witcher2 there is an average 20 hours of developers work

And lets say that for every every 1 choice you make in the Skyrim there is an average 10 hours of developers work

And lets say The witcher2 has 1000 choices in. Means 20,000 hours of work on AI.


Now lets say Skyrim has 3000 choices in. Means 30,000 hours of work on AI


Means skyrims AI is overworked, means to me, better.

Bidd..........thats utter conjecture... :mellow: not your numbers....but the entire post

It totaly is

Im basing it from what ive read so far about both games. And from playing witcher 1 and morrowind and oblivion.

So yeah, its not the most solid ground to base on.

I dont realy understand your post bidd.....

Your calculations remind me of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2001/6/22/ Penny Arcade.

I understand what you're trying to say tho, in that even if the Witcher has put more time into each choice, if there's less choices, then overall we will see less "time" spent on choice in total. Thing is, there's no way to know. All I know is, Bethesda has been braggin' bout dragons, and everything else seems like a footnote to that. I'd prefer a game whose core has been fleshed out to one that has a single hook, no matter how impressive.

You won me just right there. I could just type that instead of digging with colors about what im trying to say.

we have not heard about guilds and stuff yet so im speculating that the guilds quest lines are not about dragons too. I HOPE!

okay see here's where the discussion has taken a turn. any 'time' they spend on each 'choice' means it is not true AI but a script. anything in either game that is a 'quest' is scripted to a major degree. it is the unscripted aspect that would represent AI. for instance, head out in the forest and stand there for a bit. now, make a save. reload that save 10 times....each time you load it, watch the environment. do the same animals walk by after the same amount of time? do the same birds fly by? do the same thing in a town. make a save in town with a few npcs around. before reloading the save, watch the npcs and note what they do, where they go, etc. now, reload the save a bunch of times and watch and note the same things. it is these types of events that determine how good the AI is. if npcs or the environment react the same way every time it's more of a scripted thing they do, not AI. if they vary what they do after each load it would indicate the games AI is kicking in and handling it differently.

AH! I love "mine's bigger than yours" arguments.

You can't really compare 2 games that have yet to come out. But, we take the previous games in the respective series and compare certain aspects of them. as objectively as possible, keeping in mind that one comes from a US powerhouse game developer, and the other from a then-independent Polish studio. Based on that, and assuming the franchises will produce something similar with some improvements, people could draw their on conclusions.

BTW, if you want to take a look at Witcher 1, is on sale for $5 at GOG, and no DRM.

A lot of the points below will answer some of the posts on this thread.

Character build - Witcher is based on a book, with a well-developed character, while the main characters in TES have no real history. Skyrim is going to deviate a bit from that, as the main character is going to be the Dragonborn (and if I am not mistaken, a descendant of the Septim line?) Anyway, this aspect is pretty much a matter of preference. Personally, I have no real preference with either.

Linearity - At their core, all MQs are linear, as you cannot advance to the next stage/chapter without completing the previous step. However, Witcher does give you a wider variety of outcomes from certain aspects of the main quest which affect how the MQ plays as compared to Oblivion. A small example: at one point, you have to conduct an investigation to advance in the MQ. You are given 5 suspects. Depending what you find and what questions you ask, you can end up finding a different character guilty, even fight and kill that character... killing that character or antagonizing that character will have some ramifications later on.

Choices - Oblivion mostly has do/do not choices, and these usually are for side quests. The MQ doesn't give the player any choice. Wicther gives the player 3 distinct paths to the main quest, and depending which path is taken, there will be in-game consequences.

Consequences of choices made - In Oblivion, the player's actions have rarely any considerable consequences to game play, and really none on the MQ. In Witcher, choices made do have consequences on game play and how the story plays, what dialog you get, what cut scenes you get, what side quests you get, etc, Small example: at the very beginning of the game, the player is given a choice to either save a wicthers' laboratory or fight a monster. (MQ) At the time, there's no clue as to what would happen if you decide a or b, but one of those decisions will make the game harder, and you don't find out until you have played the game a lot further.

Open World - Witcher doesn't have an open map. However, the story does account for it and why you can't go freely from section to section. Note on Witcher 2: there are certain areas in Witcher 2 that the player will not be able to reach, depending on choices made during game play.

Exploration - Oblivion obviously has better exploration. The game is meant for it. Witcher isn't meant to be explored.

Meshes/textures (NPCs/weapons/clothing) - The Witcher has better models, but Oblivion has much, much more. Just like DA:O, the main difference among Wicther's NPCs are colors. Witcher's number of weapons pale in comparison with Oblivion's.

Animations - Witcher has better animations all around. Combat alone, there are 6 different styles (7 if you count "non-witcher" weapons) which can be enhanced as the player advances in game. Note on Witcher 2: it has Muay Thai style fist fighting.

Dialog - Witcher can get cheesy, but that is part of the "lore", as in the books on which the game is based.

"A.I" - Note: as someone who codes C, java, perl, shell for a living, I don't like the term "A.I". It doesn't really exist. It is basically a term coined out of sci-fi movies. I prefer the term "coded behavior", which it really is ... but I digress.. both games have some level of coded behavior. However, Witcher has certain touches not seen in Oblivion, like people fishing, or reacting to the rain, reacting to the time of day, reacting to being drunk, to being upset/happy with the main character, etc. It is worth mentioning there are some environmental touches as well, like bats flying out of caves when you enter them, or swallows flying out of ruins, birds flying off the group when you run by them, etc.

Minigames - Witcher has gambling and drinking games. Not really care myself, either way.

Rating - if Witcher doesn't get an AO rating, I'll be surprised

DRM - Witcher's DRM has been removed by a patch. Wicther 2 will have no DRM if bought through GOG. Clear winner here!

Modding - both games can be modded, although Oblivion's construction set, the fact the game uses NIFs and has more vanilla models to work with, makes Oblivion the clear winner here.


For me, and based of what I have seen from the previous installments of each franchise, I have been expecting W2 with more anticipation than Skyrim, because I feel the story is deeper, more complex, and the decisions I make have real consequences in game play. ANd did I mention no DRM?

That chapter was so morbidly boring.

witcher2 has way better gfx but its more linear

"True AI" is still in the realm of theory. Scripts are very much necessary, but at the same time, not any less reliable than "true" AI. Psychology is all about studying the "scripting" of the brain. Humans in general, react generally in certain ways to generally certain events. In your animal example, the answer may be yes. If a deer has a "thirst" script, and your save happens right after than script has been activated, he will still walk by you to get to the stream.

I mean, think about using a time machine in RL instead of a saved point in a game. Theoretically, everything would play out exactly the same, over and over. UNLESS, there is at least one single tiny change. Which then has a "butterfly" effect and can institute dramatic change.

@System Shock

Wonderful post. Well reasoned and with solid facts...delicious.

Said it yourself, to be fair.

not everyone wants an action only game even for skyrim.

AI-wise, I'm very impressed with what I've seen in Witcher 2 so far. Seems really realistic and great. So far I'd say it's better than Skyrim's. It's not a totally fair comparison though as we've not actually seen the AI in Skyrim yet, only heard bits here and there. But as I said, so far, I think the AI in Witcher 2 sounds more complex and better.

Story-wise... could be a close call. Witcher 2 aims for lots of political and dark stuff. Mankind is shown more by its true nature. Skyrim takes a different path. Much more epic fantasy stuff. Witcher 2 got SIXTEEN different endings. Sixteen. That's a lot. I think the Witcher 2 story will be much more complex and down-to-earth, while Skyrim's will take us to epic realms of fantasy and war. I think Skyrim's story will be better in whole though. It sounds really awesome so far. Almost as awesome as Morrowind's.

In any case, Witcher 2 is definitely a worthy competitor to Skyrim. Todd is surely aware of this. Wonder if Witcher 2 will affect Skyrim after it is released in a week.

Keep in mind that the human mind is an also a coded behavior and the machine is just our brain. the only problem is that we dont have strong enought computers to make human mind complexity and we also dont have enought programmers. so yea its technicaly impossible to do an AI but its also theoricaly ''possible''

Yes I did. I should have qualified that statement with " based on what I have seen from the past installments of each franchise".
Thanks for pointing that out.

You really hate The Witcher like no other do you :sweat: .

I really liked the first Witcher, you mentioned all the things you didnt like on the first page and with some I agree'd, there are problems, but most of them are not as bad to make them game breaking and the good far outweighs the bad.

"The Witcher 1 was terrible and morbidly boring and it was realy hard."
I think it was really interesting, and yes it was hard, but being hard sure as hell beats a game thats too easy like most games that come out now a days.

"The movement was stiff and the controlls were awkward. Some animations would take too long to do and you have no defense against higher level enemies who will mow you down in a heart beat."
Higher level enemies did hit hard... very hard, and messing up a dodge three times in a row can be deadly... but why did you miss the dodge three times in a row? Mobs have a system you need to adapt to. This applies to a lot of games, save often, save again, and then once more for good measure.

Combat was fun too (when not fighting the filler mobs) because you had to use a mix of all the abilities you had to kill certain mobs/bosses.

"Slashing your sword a hundred times and doing little or no damage, while the enemies beat you over in just a couple of hits. Plus endlessly long combat with plants that spit poisonous barbs which kill you in seconds."
I agree on this one, there was too much filler mindless combat like in the swamp :swear:

I think at this point its soundly clear that TES will never be beat at its own genre. Dragon Age tried. Witcher tried. Risen tried. Gothic tried. Two Worlds tried. Fable (pfft) tried. Do any of those even start to compare with Morrowind and Oblivion? Well, i think not, but everyone has their own opinion.

The Witcher 2 and Skyrim aren't really a fair comparison. Considering The Witcher 2 focuses more on character development and story, it's more fair to compare it to BioWare games. At the same time though, The Witcher 2 is very large. It's not one persistent world like BGS games, but there are a variety of environments you may never see depending on your choices.

In terms of story, it will likely be better as the player will probably have more control over what they do. In terms of their npcs, Radiant AI is likely still better. CD Projekt Red has done a great job of giving the illusion of making their npcs come to life though. They have personality, jobs, react to the world and environment, and an assortment of other things very similar to Radiant AI.

The Witcher 2 comes out in a week. Don't miss it! I know I won't!

Also, the standard addition is the equivalent of a collector's edition for a game.

Those games did some things better than TES , and TES did a lot of things better than those games , and i don't think those games tried to beat TES , well Two Worlds/Two Lolz mabe (i do think that game is a total joke both 1 and 2). Those games wanted to be fun games on their own ... not every RPG in the world wants to "beat" or "copy" TES , i believe and i hope :unsure:

Witcher 2 could bomb or get average reviews for all we know. Don't think we'd want Todd and crew wasting their time with an average game.

You may be right there.

TES is in a genre of it's own. It's not fair to compare it to games like Dragon Age and The Witcher as they clearly have nothing in common. TES clearly is the best game when it comes to the open-world RPG. However, Dragon Age and The Witcher easily take the cake when it comes to choice-driven story RPGs. The only game that probably should be compared to TES would be Two Worlds, which was always too ambitious for the developer who tried to pull it off. As a result, it went face-forward into the ground.

The only true competition BGS has is really itself. That could change in the future if anyone else decides to do an open-world FPS RPG.

Dont't think we'd want BGS crew completely ignore a game that could Bomb reviews too.