Does this installation plan make me look fat? (^o^)/

Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:07 pm

So far I've only tried a few mods at a time. Now, I'm ready to start a new game with some of the great mods recommended by the kind souls on this forum.

I put together a list of what I think will be the correct installation order combining FCOM with MMM, OOO, Francesco's and WarCry. I would very much appreciate any advice you can provide on whether I am doing this correctly. Also please let me know if you think I am using the wrong version of any mod, or if perhaps a different mod would be a better choice (or if I have inadvertently omitted any additional mod you think can improve the experience with better HD textures or perhaps more excellent quest content)

I have installed the Oblivion GOTY via Steam and I'm running the game on an Envy 15 laptop at 1920x1080 resolution with 1GB HD5830 GPU, i7-820QM, 16 GB RAM, Dual Intel G2 SSDs in Raid0 and Windows 7 64-bit. I will be creating a new dark elf PC that uses lots of magic and the survival-type mods requiring eating/drinking/sleeping are very important to the experience I want to cultivate. I also want a challenging combat experience.

I already have KOTN and Shivering Isles, Mehrunes Razor DLC and the DLC for the various lairs and Frostcraig Spire already installed, as well as the VampireAgingDisabled 2xYoung mod. Do I need to uninstall/reinstall any of these?

Here is what I believe should be the proper installation procedure:

1) Install OBSE
- download from http://obse.silverlock.org/
- Copy obse_1_2_416.dll, obse_editor_1_2.dll, and obse_steam_loader.dll to your Oblivion directory. This is usually "C:\Program Files\Valve\Steam\SteamApps\common\oblivion".
- Launch Oblivion via Steam or by running Oblivion.exe. OBSE will automatically be run along with Oblivion when launched. To disable this, rename or move obse_steam_loader.dll. You do not need to use obse_loader.exe unless you are running the editor.

2) Get obse_loader from http://media.steampowered.com/content/obse_loader.zip, and extract the obse_loader.exe over the top of the one from the standard OBSE install in oblivion folder.

3) Run obse_loader.exe

4) Download and install OBMM
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2097

5) Download and install BOSS.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20516

6) Download and install the BOSS Masterlist manager
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=29790

7) Download and install The Unofficial Oblivion Patch v3.2.0 Installer Version http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5296

8) Download and install The Unofficial Patch Supplementals
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27710

9) Download and install The Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10739

10) Download and install The Unofficial Mods Patch
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=9969

11) Ensure that OBMM and BOSS are installed. From there, install Wrye Python 02 and WryeBash 285.
[not sure where to download these two files]

12) Download and install OOO 1.33 Complete
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15256

13) Download and install the OOO 1.34 beta 5 patch
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=3953

14) Once all is installed and activated in OBMM, use BOSS to sort the load order

15) Download MMM 3.5.5 FULL package extract the 'Meshes,' Sound,' and 'Textures' folders into "Data" folder. Do NOT use any of the ESMs/ESPs from this version.

16) Unzip the MMM37b3bsa.7ip to Oblivion/Data directory

17) Unzip the MMM37b3p3.7zip to folder where you download it too.

18) Select 'Mart's Monster Mod.esm' (If using OOO also select MMMforOOO.esm)

19) Select ONE of the following and copy to Oblivion/Data Directory

'Mart's Monster Mod.esp' - And Rename MMM.bsa to Mart's Monster Mod.bsa
*OR*
'Mart's Monster Mod for Frans.esp' - And Rename bsa to Mart's Monster Mod for Frans.bsa
*OR*
'Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.esp' - And Rename bsa to Mart's Monster Mod for OOO.bsa

20) Now Select MMM Hunting and Crafting Plugin, MMM City Defenses Plugin, MMM Knights Plugin, MMM More Wilderness life Plugin, MMM Vindasel Plugin, MMM Gems and Gems Dust Plugin, and copy to the Oblivion/Data directory

21) Once again, close OBMM and run BOSS, then load up OBMM again.

22) Download and install Francescos Main Package. DO NOT install any of the addons unless they are stated below:
Shivering Isles Version (only if you have SI installed - yes, I do have it installed)
Lyrondor's Combat Behavior (recommended)
MOBS (highly recommended)
hardcoe Loot (recommended)
Living Economy [do NOT use the stand-alone version at the same time] (highly recommended)[to be replaced with Enhanced Economy]
'Optional Leveled Guards' (for the SI version)
'Optional Chance of More Enemies' (for the SI version)
'Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies' (required)
'Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses' (required)
'New Items Add-On' [requires the FCOM add-on FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp]
Merge Optional Files (do NOT merge the files!)
Cell Respawn Time (if you want to change this, do so in Wrye Bash)
Day Length Rescale (if you want to change this [I use a value of 12], do so in the console by typing the command set timescale to )
Skill Progression Speed (use another mod like nGCD + Progress instead of this or check out this thread for other alternatives)

23) Download and install Francescos Add-On Package and install the following ONLY:
New Items Add-On
BSA File Registration

24) At this stage, you should have the following plugins from Frans in your Data Folder:
Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp (only if you have SI installed)
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp (only if you have SI installed)

25) Exit OBMM and run BOSS, go back into OBMM.

26) Download and install Oblivion WarCry 1.08a.
from http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/theelderscrollsivoblivion/mod/19268.html

27) Download and install Warcry Patch 1.08b (OWC_Patch_1.08b_1.085b.7z) from http://www.strategyinformer.com/pc/theelderscrollsivoblivion/mod/19269.html

28) Exit OBMM and run BOSS.

29) Download and install Bobs Armory v.1.1 http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=oblivionmods.detail&id=1860

30) Exit OBMM and run BOSS.

31) Download and install the required FCOM Files:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12249
FCOM_Convergence.esm
FCOM_Francescos.esp
FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp
FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp
FCOM_BobsArmory.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp
FCOM_RealSwords.esp

32) Exit and run BOSS.

33) Make sure in OBMM that Bashed Patch 0.esp is activated. This is very important and is required for the FCOM to operate properly.

34) Run Oblivion to test

35) Download and install Elsweyr the Deserts of Anequina
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25023

36) Download and install Arabian Music for Elsweyr Anequina
[not sure where to find this file]

37) Download and install Colored World Map for Elsweyr
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25150

38) Download and install the Optional Files and the Silent MP3 files.

39) Run BOSS and start the game. If you get to the start menu, then exit and continue.

40) Download and install Alternate Start Revamped
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3973

41) Download and install Natural Environments
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2536

42) Download and install Alive Waters
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6914

43) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then make run the game to test.

44) Download and install the Unique Landscapes Compilation OMOD http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19370

45) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then run the game to test.

46) Download and install Improved Trees and Flora v2
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11891

47) Download and install Animated Window Lighting System and Chimneys - AWLS.
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19628

48) Download and install Bananasplit's Better Cities v.4.8.4
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16513

49) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then run the game to test.

50) Download and install COMMON OBLIVION (COBL) v.1.72 (9/26/09)http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21104

51) Download and install HGEC Body v.1.21
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15802

52) Download and install Natural_Faces_v95_OMOD
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1965

53) Bananasplit's Better Cities v.4.8.4
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16513

54) Improved Trees and Flora 2
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11891

55) Oblivion Stereo Sound Overhaul (Jan 7 2008)
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5861

56) Symphony of Violence v.0.5
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13987

57) Atmospheric Oblivion
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=7703

58) More Immersive Sound
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5487

59) Thievery in the Imperial City v1.2 by JOG
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5156

60) Lynge's Thieves Highway v1.0 by Martin Lynge
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10256

61)Less Food v. 0.2 by pingveen
[don't know where to find this mod - any suggestions?]

62) Smokeable Pipe Mod
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11892

63) Hackdirt Abyss of the Deep Ones
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13952

64) Silgrad Tower v3.0
http://www.filefront.com/17642341/Silgrad-Tower-v3.0.7z/

65) Storms and Sound v3
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=8711

66) Enhanced Weather (EW):
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16544

67) Less Annoying Magic Experience LAME OMOD Installer
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25267

68) Supreme Magicka Update
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12466

69) NTCore 4GB Patch File v.1.0.0.1
http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php

70) FF Real Thirst v.1.6.0
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=14214

71) REAL SLEEP EXTENDED v.2.3.4 (9/01/09)
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=24649

72) REAL HUNGER, COBL v.1.6.1 (2/08/09)
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21106

73) Arthur Natural Environments v.2.9.7[cancelling this one, some have said it is buggy]
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13207

73) Enhanced Economy v.5.1
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25078

74) Download and install Qarls Texture Pack III Full v1_3_OMOD
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18498.
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Soku Nyorah
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:28 pm

From a quick glance, I'd say skip Arthur Natural Environment, skip Enhanced Weather, skip QTP3 Full. Add All Natural, add QTP3 Redimized (No matter how good your computer is, it's better to use QTP3R since you gain performance with no visual loss). Make sure to clean mods using tes4edit, a list of some mods that definitely needs cleaning (though not all of them) is here: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit_Cleaning_Guide#Quick_List_of_What_.26_What_Not_to_Clean
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Alister Scott
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:38 pm

Some random points I noticed:

15) - 20)
Do NOT install MMM 3.5.5 FULL.

There is an http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1116296-relz-martsmonstermod37b3-public-release-3-relz/, follow the instructions there. And since you plan to use OBMM, the installation of MMM is greatly simplified by using my http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=995334, which is linked to in the first post of the MMM thread.

22) Download and install Francescos Main Package. DO NOT install any of the addons unless they are stated below:
...
Living Economy [do NOT use the stand-alone version at the same time] (highly recommended)
...
Day Length Rescale (if you want to change this [I use a value of 12], do so in the console by typing the command set timescale to )
Don't install Living Economy, but install http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1138371-relz-enhanced-economy/ instead. Less bugs, many more features, much easier to configure, much more compatible with other mods (like the rest of FCOM). And yes, I am the creator of EE, so the previous sentence wasn't exactly objective, but at least well-informed ;)

For the timescale, since you plan to install Real Sleep Extended, you also get the possibility of having dynamic timescale if you want to.

25) Exit OBMM and run BOSS, go back into OBMM.
There's absolutely no good reason to run BOSS between each installation unless you are also planning to start the game and test the installation too (but that's a pretty good idea though).

31) Download and install the required FCOM Files:
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=12249
FCOM_Convergence.esm
FCOM_Francescos.esp
FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp
FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp
FCOM_BobsArmory.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp
FCOM_RealSwords.esp
It is absolutely required that you install the uFCOM update. Read the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1146727-relz-fcom-convergence-and-ufcom/ for what you need, and again, my http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=995334 makes it much simpler to get it right.

41) Download and install Natural Environments
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2536
But don't install the weather part.

73) Arthur Natural Environments v.2.9.7[not sure about this one, some have said it is buggy]
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13207
Stay away, it IS buggy. Either stick to Enhanced Weather if you want a simple weather mod, or go all out for All Natural if you want the best.

74) Download and install Qarls Texture Pack III Full v1_3_OMOD
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=18498.
...and watch your game kneel in single FPS digits... With that many gameplay mods to stress your system, the last thing you need is a heavy graphics mod that makes it unplayable.
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:20 am

6) Download and install the BOSS Masterlist manager
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=29790

21) Once again, close OBMM and run BOSS, then load up OBMM again.

25) Exit OBMM and run BOSS, go back into OBMM.

28) Exit OBMM and run BOSS.

30) Exit OBMM and run BOSS.

32) Exit and run BOSS.

41) Download and install Natural Environments
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2536

43) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then make run the game to test.

45) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then run the game to test.

49) Exit OBMM, run BOSS and then run the game to test.

66) Enhanced Weather (EW):
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16544

73) Arthur Natural Environments v.2.9.7[not sure about this one, some have said it is buggy]
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13207


1. You only need to run BOSS once before loading the game. I.e. If you add a heap of mods, then you should run BOSS before you then play the game, but you don't need to run it every time you install a mod.

2. I thought I already told you not to use Arthur's Natural Environments. You certainly can't use it with either Enhanced Weather or Natural Enviroments. If you want to use a weather mod, you can only choose one, and ANE also includes the other components of NE. Either pick EW + NE (minus Natural Weather), or just use NE (but get Ryu Doppler's fixed Natural Weather), or use another weather mod (AWS or All Natural, basically).

3. You might not need BOMM, make sure what you think you need it for is actually what you need it for, a lot of its features are covered by BOSS now (minus the GUI, if you're wanting that you still need BOMM).
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Erin S
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:19 am

Thanks very much to all for your excellent guidance!

I'm a bit confused about Qarl's Texture Pack III - a few members have suggested that it will significantly reduce my FPS; however, when running it without any other major mods, according to FRAPS I am still at constant 60 fps at 1920x1080 resolution, all detail settings completely maxed. I made sure to go through the steps in the OBMM to ensure it is properly installed and running, and I have noticed many textures have changed in-game, however, absolutely no drop in my fps. (Perhaps because I have dual SSDs in Raid0 which can load the large texture files quickly?) I'm fairly certain I have installed QTP3 correctly, but is it possible I'm missing some of the HD textures? The file size of the OMOD was 1.7GB.

Or is this something that becomes problematic only after I have large mods like FCOM, MMM, OOO and WarCry installed?
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George PUluse
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:58 pm

The way I see it there are thee ways to max out game:

Too much graphics (higher resolution means larger file sizes to render).
Too many people (due to AI - this game is not meant for the things that a game like mount and blade can do with 150 people fighting on screen)
Too many things (as in meshes from buildings and items being rendered)

for my own game if I try to max all three out then I cannot play the game. It is about priorities. Overhauls like FCOM (especially FCOM) add a lot of actors to the game cell by cell across the entire world. Less so with each of its parts. Then you add mods that improve their AI and you are adding more to the CPU strain exponentially. Likewise meshes being added by vwd mods or Better Cities (in the city interiors) can also strain your hardware. Of course graphics - and a mod like QTPIII with its 4x or more larger textures will also be a strain to the video card and the cpu will pick up where the video card can't.

My advice is determine which of those three are the most important for you the pair the others down till it is livable. For my game I prize AI above all else and it is at the point where I'm considering dropping full FCOM for OOO+MMM with whatever I can do to reduce the spawns. At level 26 my character just did the defense of Bruma and it was a crawl through that with added spawns with improved AI from all the other mods I run. More than 30 people on the screen and even though I've added the ability for more via bashed patch it was ctd after each scene - I literally had to save after each section. this game was not meant to handle the amount of actors that FCOM can add and it would take very recent high end hardware to do what it can add as far as NPCs being rendered.

If you are set on FCOM then just build that and the UOP maybe All Natural - and play it for a short while to get a baseline of stress for your rig. Then add slowly and let ctds be your guide. Adding all that at once is going to guarantee we see you back with multiple ctd debugging threads.

Some find it better to focus on graphics and to them game play AI and more things are less important. For me graphics became the least important of the three areas. There are other graphic packs out there with much less strain than QTPIII.

It would take the latest greatest hardware around today to handle all three areas maxed out by what mods can offer.

[edit] also if you are not installing with http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1084204-bain-mod-installation-projects/ then you are doing yourself a disservice.
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Gemma Flanagan
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:42 pm

Yeah, it's pretty much like Psymon said - QTPIII alone won't put a lot of strain (if any) on a high-end system like yours, but in combination with a bunch of other stuff, it can. If you're going with a huge loadout, I'd recommend QTP3R: it's an optimized version for less powerful computers, and the loss of graphics is minimal over QTP3. I use it on my mid-level computer with a full FCOM setup, ~200 mods, and a lot of graphics enhancers, and I can pull down mid-30s FPS most places outdoors (indoors is 50+).
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Hella Beast
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:33 pm

I'd say that the Thieves Highway is not compatible with Better Cities. It should be integrated in it as far as I know.
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Smokey
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:35 pm

Make sure to clean mods using tes4edit, a list of some mods that definitely needs cleaning (though not all of them) is here: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit_Cleaning_Guide#Quick_List_of_What_.26_What_Not_to_Clean


Thanks again to everyone for your guidance.

To make sure I understand the cleaning process correctly, I should run TES4Edit on each mod file before installing it except for the following:

Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp (author says to not clean)
Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp (author says to not clean)
Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp (author says to not clean)

BG2408's mods (LAME, RBP, Integration)

Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp

FCOM (None of the .esp/.esm files should be cleaned)


Do I use tes4edit to clean texture packs as well? For example, if I am already running Qarl's Texture Pack 3, do I need to remove it and then load the OMOD file again?
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SHAWNNA-KAY
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:13 pm

You are planning to far ahead.

If you think you need to clean QTPIII - then you haven't even installed it yet - there is no esp.

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/TES4Edit_Cleaning_Guide is the extended tutorial for cleaning.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes4Mod:Tes4Edit#Cleaning_a_Dirty_Plugin is the abbreviated. (read the top one first).

Some guidelines:
Don't clean Overhauls or most mods made by overhaul related modders (COBL, FCOM related, etc). Or things like the UOP or USIP. LAME RBP, Supreme Magicka - if not sure ask.
Don't clean esp that have other esp as masters.

Do clean the official DLC (well no need with SI).
Do clean from the top down (clean an esm prior to cleaning the esp that relies on it.
Do report if you find things (but not to the point where it is annoying - you will figure out which modders care and which don't pretty quick).
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Naazhe Perezz
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:09 pm

Many of the issues people have with QTP3 is actually caused when running out of video memory since when you run out of video memory textures now have to be swapped between the video memory and system memory regularily which causes the game to slow down and also cause extra strain on the system.
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noa zarfati
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 pm

Many of the issues people have with QTP3 is actually caused when running out of video memory since when you run out of video memory textures now have to be swapped between the video memory and system memory regularily which causes the game to slow down and also cause extra strain on the system.


I've been pondering about that. I'm running CorePCs Vibrant now due to performance issues with QTP3R (heavily modded game), but even when I ran QTP3R I never really got above 600mb vram load, and I have a 1gb graphics card (5770). The difference in performance is quite major however now with Vibrant, where the load usually stays in the 200-300mark.
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John Moore
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:35 pm

I found this out last time I played Oblivion which was not long after QTP3 came out and I was testing my game with it and during my testing I cam to the conclusion that the fps was unplayable because I didn't have enough video memory at the time.
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Jessie Butterfield
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:11 am

Make sure you get http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23208 and configure it to be using a new heap with a size of 1024mb.

You might like to get http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16622 as well.
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Frank Firefly
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:41 am

I've been pondering about that. I'm running CorePCs Vibrant now due to performance issues with QTP3R (heavily modded game), but even when I ran QTP3R I never really got above 600mb vram load, and I have a 1gb graphics card (5770). The difference in performance is quite major however now with Vibrant, where the load usually stays in the 200-300mark.


I found this out last time I played Oblivion which was not long after QTP3 came out and I was testing my game with it and during my testing I cam to the conclusion that the fps was unplayable because I didn't have enough video memory at the time.


I'm running some tests now to find out a bit more. Luckily I copied Psymon's great idea some time ago to make a World Texture BAIN Compilation with CorePCs, QTP etc so switching between them is easy. So far I've tested Vanilla, CorePC (with Bomrets normal) and QTP3R and QTP3R Reduced Lite. I never get close to reaching my videocards maximum vram usage, and fps stays the same across the tests. However, with QTP I seem to be getting "microstuttering" that I'm not getting with vanilla or CorePCs Vibrant, so there is a difference in gameplay it seems evenif not in direct fps. My game is very heavily modded so fps has stayed low at 20-25fps even with vanilla textures.

Sorry for the offtopic, but I suppose this information can help the OP aswell, if it actually means anything. :)

Edit: realized after posting that one difference between the setups was that the HDD was freshly defragged when running the test with CorePC Vibrant. For Vanilla test there was no need as it instead reads from the pyffied and uncompressed bsa, which was defragged aswell. I forgot to defrag before running the QTP3 tests however, will do so before testing QTP3R Reduced Regular/Max and see if the microstutter is gone. The fragmentation level was very small however, but figured I'd mention it anyway.
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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:29 am

With regard to my points above about the three main ways to stress your install - tests of replacers without reference to load order aren't going to mean that much.

Like I tried to convey - I could focus on making my install as pretty as can be and use QTPIII R and many other higher end replacers and OBGE and Ambient Dungeons and Screen Effects and custom shaders - and I would not stress my rig that much at all. I've only a 1 gig vram card from ATI that is over a year old and only costs like $200 back then and all that would not be much strain.

Now if I then add in RAEVWD or a much heavier MTAEVWD + Open Cities + Every Village mod I can think of that is more meshes/architecture to be rendered - yeah alone these will be no big deal when used by themselves but strain will start to show with the texture replacers like QTP III.

Further still I add in FCOM which increases the number of spawn points around the country side dramatically, as well as, the amount at each spawn point. Where instead of a few goblins you get 20. So a few spawn points in this cell or that cell and the number of actors being rendered increases quite a lot (and remember that the game will load a few cells out from you so they are being accounted for by the engine even if you are not directly seeing them). These extra actors strain the CPU (which in a vanilla load order with heavy texture replacers will pick up some of the slack for the video card). Then next I could add in AI mods that increase the amount of actor behavior components - better stealth, detection, combat behavior, fleeing, magic being used. And these are often extra scripts running which again is more strain on the CPU.

I know this ... and I don't say this to bash any modders at all - most modders who work on their mods generally tend to use just their mods and a handful of other mods at most. One primary reason I've been given for this is that when modding the more mods installed makes managing their own mods that they are modding more difficult to track. That having vanilla plus the mods they are working on keeps testing easier and cleaner. Mod users (like me) read a website like Dev's TOTO and FCOM page and think "great - I've got a new computer - I can surely handle what is recommended here!" Not so.

Misleading in fact. If you want to know why mod makers report the performances they do for their mods and why it is different than what you experience - ask them for their load order. This game extensively modded can still cripple your rig in several directions at once and some of that is just the engine limitations but it is also important (I think) to consider that many mods are made in isolation from other mods.

So it is a balancing act and having FCOM with QTPIII (not in the BSAs) with Open Cities and 200 other mods - and you will not have a playable game. It will make you look fat and your booty mos definitely be sweating.
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Cassie Boyle
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:38 pm

So it is a balancing act and having FCOM with QTPIII (not in the BSAs) with Open Cities and 200 other mods - and you will not have a playable game. It will make you look fat and your booty mos definitely be sweating.


There. Fixed that for you. It's not FCOM, QTP3® or OCC/OCR that are the issue in that case. It's the 200 other mods that went in after. I would have figured by now we as a collective were past singling out mods as resource hogs in a misleading way.

Yes, FCOM can impose quite a burden, but taken in isolation it's not enough to cripple anything.

QTP3-R can impose a heavy burden on lower end systems.

OCC/OCR offers no significant impact to performance. Not even with respect to AI since there's no significant number of extra NPCs being added.

But throw 200 other mods on top of any of the above, and you're just asking for a heap of trouble even from the highest end machines known to man. Gamebryo simple can't handle the load. It would only be insignificant if it were 200 armor mods with no NPCs or something. Anything of any larger substance is going to cause issue simply by virtue of consuming system RAM and causing disk stutter.
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Wayland Neace
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:13 pm

The problem with performance doesn't necessarily stem from the amount of mods you have but more on balancing the mods you are using. The reason why qtp3 was causing performance problems on my old system is because there was more being loaded then the video ram I had could handle so there was a constant transfer of textures from system memory to video memory which creates a huge hit to the cpu and gpu which would be far more then most other mods. It isn't just qtp3 you have to worry about with this but also mods like raevwd, open cities, better cities, and any other mod that drastically increases the texture resolution or object count because all of that increases the amount of video memory taken up.

I haven't used obge or any other mods that add extensive shader functionality but from my experience with Morrowind and mge shaders can be a huge hit to performance and with mge just turning on shaders has a huge impact to performance. With cpu problems you need to decrease the amount of AI on screen at once and with things like FCOM you can use the reduced spawn plugins to take care of that. Scripts usually don't have very much impact on performance and the times that they do it is usually an error in the script that causes it or that it is a heavy script that is set to run too often.

To increase performance first check and see when you are having problems with performance.

If the problems are there all of the time you probably need to either use reduced versions of qtp3, reduce raevwd, or check to see if you have bad script mods. If the previous doesn't work reduce the shaders you use starting with SSAO.

If the problems happen when there are many creatures or people near by then you need to either use a reduced spawn mod, or stop using mods that add many new npcs to the cities, roads, wilderness.

If it only happens in cities either try the above or either decrease the object and texture load by the above methods or disable better cities because your system can't handle it along with everything else.
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SiLa
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:56 pm

Arthmoor-

I think it is natural of a modder to rightfully defend their creation. And I'd say I cannot think of a modder who has done more for keeping their creations optimized, up to date, and forward looking. Nor of a modder who has taught me more, personally, about how to optimize my own load order and apply many other fixes to get the most out of my system. You are the man in that regard.

But again it is a matter of prioirties with regard to what kinds of things in a load order are more important.

If one really wants to run FCOM and a ton of AI mods then easily Open Cities could be lumped into that other 200 mods. I'm not trying to perpetuate a rumor that OC is an fps killer, but I would not call it FCOM friendly. It just is that way ... if I travel across 10 wilderness cells with FCOM that already has 15-20 actors per cell (taking into account more in surrounding cells) then you come upon chorrol with its UL right outside the city which itself is open - a person is likely to hit a ceiling with all the added actors being rendered right on the other side of the wall.

This max actors thing is no joke - I've seen how hitting that can cause more trouble than some actors just standing around with no reactions. In that regard then OC will have more of an impact than 10 stealth overhauls. Goign through the woods with normal size spawn points and mobs from each point and then hit an open city - even with QTP3R and yeah probably a good rig could handle that very well.

Your editing my post is just for the sake of OC being the primary mod for a load order. I understand that.
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:52 pm

No, I was editing your post to reflect that it isn't any one thing - it's not QTP3-R, it isn't FCOM, and it isn't Open Cities. It's the 200 mods you stacked on top of it all.

Yes, the number of NPCs is a huge issue. Statistically speaking, you're probably adding an average of 5 new ones with any mod that has them that isn't an overhaul. Obviously quest mods add far more than that in almost all cases, and surely you can see that an overhaul could easily reach into the hundreds.

If NPCs are the primary focus of your optimization, then Open Cities (Classic anyway) cannot factor into that because it adds a grand total of zero. OCR adds up to 10 or so depending on where in the MQ you happen to be, and they're not all lumped into one place either. So yes, I will step up to correct that sort of misleading information. Your NPC adding mods are the cause of the problem, not a city overhaul.

So yeah, you'll just have to forgive me if I insist on setting that record straight, especially when you continue to propagate the bogus claim that OC is not FCOM friendly. You could remove it, and still end up traversing that 10 cells of wilderness and generating NPC/creature spawns along the way and having OC out of the loop will not change the drag that places on things. All of the NPCs that were in the cities still exist, they're STILL in the cities. The game still keeps track of them, regardless of how far away you are.

You've been playing this game long enough to know that spawned NPCs and creatures don't update their AI once you've gotten far enough away from them to unload the cells they're in. So really the only issue as far as AI in general is the load of always-processed NPCs and/or creatures out in the world. I couldn't tell you how many of those there are in an FCOM game. My guess is a rather significant number. Most quest mods that add NPCs don't park them on low level processing either.

So if you're acknowledging that actor overload is the real issue, then I fail to see why pointing the finger at non-actor generating mods is productive.
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Céline Rémy
 
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Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:25 am

I'm not sure I have the correct instructions for installing OBSE and the OBSE loader with a Steam installation.

1) Install OBSE
- download from http://obse.silverlock.org/
- Copy obse_1_2_416.dll, obse_editor_1_2.dll, and obse_steam_loader.dll to your Oblivion directory. This is usually "C:\Program Files\Valve\Steam\SteamApps\common\oblivion".
- Launch Oblivion via Steam or by running Oblivion.exe. OBSE will automatically be run along with Oblivion when launched. To disable this, rename or move obse_steam_loader.dll. You do not need to use obse_loader.exe unless you are running the editor.

2) Get obse_loader from http://media.steampo...obse_loader.zip, and extract the obse_loader.exe over the top of the one from the standard OBSE install in oblivion folder.

3) Run obse_loader.exe


It was my impression that not only was OBSE necessary (from http://obse.silverlock.org/ ), but also the alternate OBSE loader file (from http://media.steampowered.com/content/obse_loader.zip ).

However, in the readme file for the OBSE zip package, it appears that when running with a Steam installation, there is no need to use any obse loader.exe file. In fact, if I install OBSE by following the instructions for steam isntallation to the letter, there is no version of obse_loader.exe "from the standard OBSE install" to "install over" as instructed, because you are only supposed to copy over the .dll files, not the obse_loader, when performing the install of OBSE following the instructions for Steam installation.

Do I still need to install the alternate obse_loader.exe file or am I misunderstanding these instructions?
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Albert Wesker
 
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Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:58 am

So if you're acknowledging that actor overload is the real issue, then I fail to see why pointing the finger at non-actor generating mods is productive.

Most ctds I deal with are in the Tamriel world space not the closed city spaces, not the dungeons, ruins, caves, not in buildings or inns throughout the land, not in castles etc. They occur (in my FCOM game that is) by trucking across the landscape out in the larger world. In my TIE-WAC game with its 200+ mods as well I've not experienced that kind of thing and although TIE & WAC do provide unleveled play they are not up the spawn mobs that much (from what I know - I think WAC does add spawn points though). Of course that game the character is much newer and the save game file size much smaller.

True a mod like Lost Spires adds NPCs out there, but not to the order of adding all the NPCs of say Chorrol or Bravil both of which also have UL mods right outside their gates as well.

Now unless I'm completely off the mark as I understand it - when a character approaches a closed city space when outside the walls all the NPCs inside are not being rendered or given active AI packages - is that correct?

Add in an open variant and then suddenly the game will need to render all the creature/actor spawns out there it would also have to render the actors from inside the walls that would be loaded due to being right next to the actors occupying cell. Add in then a UL (which now are right up against three of the cites. Add in an Oblivion gate with more than the normal of spawns for that area being added. If you are already tapping out the max actors your rig can handle then come up against a city gate instead of suddenly reducing those actors by going into the city they are increased just by approaching a city. The same is true for an Oblivion gate with Enhanced Daedric Invasion. In this regard then OC does add NPCs to the world - the tamriel worldspace. Where a lot of people report their ctds happen.

Now if I am wrong I'd like to know - if indeed a closed city is still having its NPCs monitored, rendered, AI packages and all then I'd like to know and I will clean up and correct myself from here on out.

Like I said it is understandable to want to defend your mod and I know you don't play with FCOM much less a high level FCOM game. I also know that you optimize everything you get your hands on and pack as much as you can into BSA files and a few other 'tricks' and alterations to get the most out of your game.

Yes just running OC and FCOM would likely be just fine together. but how often do you get load order check threads that ask only about those two? How many threads ask for full FCOM, QTPIII, and either BC or OC ... and 200 other mods?

I'm not saying it is a major player in the fps damaging arena - I'd think FCOM is more so that OC by far. Just adding basic FCOM to my game without even texture replacers can result in a drop of 20-30 fps right out of the gate. OC by itself does not have that factor. But OC on top of an FCOM game can have the slight enough factor. If a player wants to have an FCOM game and that is their goal then my suggestion is look at the other areas of how the game can be stressed and think about how to bring those within reason.
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Jason Rice
 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:42 pm

Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:15 am

So far the installation process has been proceeding OK; however, I'm having trouble figuring out how to create the bashed patch. Also when I attempt to activate and install uFCOM, I keep getting a dialogue message indicating "Frans is not detected" despite the fact that I have installed both Francesco's leveled items creatures and Francescos optional new items creatures. (both .exe files), and the appropriate checkboxes appear in Oblivion Mod Manager. For some reason, uFCOM does not detect the Frans installation.

Regarding the bashed patch, here is my problem:

Tthe instructions for creating the bashed patch indicate that I need to access a file called Bashed Patch, 0.esp and copy it to the oblivion/data folder etc., however, I have absolutely no idea where this file is placed after running the Wrye Bash installer.exe. What seems to happen is that a sub-directory is created in the Data folder called "bashed patches" and inside are several .csv files, but no Bashed Patch, 0.esp files anywhere to be found.

the instructions should be as follows, as I have a recent version of Wrye Bash and I am creating a new savegame

If you are starting a new savegame after installing FCOM, then you can skip steps #1, and #8. If you have a recent version of Wrye Bash, you can skip steps #4 and #5. The other steps are required.

1. First, go to a safe location in the game, sleep/wait for respawn, and save your progress. This clears all loaded NPCs and creatures from active memory so they can be loaded with updated stats and gear next time you load that savegame. However, not all locations are safe to wait for respawn. For example, sleeping in your Imperial City Shack is not the best choice for getting a complete respawn -- nor are any of the vanilla player homes -- especially if you're experiencing problems with any NPCs nearby, such as guards. The cells adjacent to your home will not respawn while you rest there. It's much better to go into the wilderness (or anywhere you haven't been in a very long time) and wait there for respawn (then fast travel to some other location far away after the upgrade process is complete).

Or, if you want a completely safe location to wait for respawn, use the console command ~coc TestingHall and wait there (it's safe because it's not connected to anything). When you load the game back up after finishing the upgrade, you can again use the console to return to the normal world by doing ~cow Tamriel, 11,20 (takes you close to the starter dungeon exit) or go through the door to Hawkhaven and fast travel from there. You can use the Cell Grid Map to find other location codes.

But wait! Finish the rest of the upgrade steps before returning to the world!

2. The first actual step of the upgrade installation is to make sure you have installed Wrye Bash v118 or later. Older versions since 0.59 work, too, but the procedure is a bit different, so you'll have to look elsewhere for instructions about how to use older versions.

3. Once you have Wrye Bash installed, find the Bashed Patch, 0.esp that came with Wrye Bash and copy it into your \Oblivion\Data\ directory. Make sure it's set to load last in Wrye Bash (you may want to set it to have a date in the future, like the year 2011 or something, so no other plugins will ever load after it). The only known exception to this rule at present is the mod Deadly Reflex, which has some components that should load after the Bashed Patch (see the readme from Deadly Reflex for details).

4. If you use Wrye Bash 219 or later, it will automatically tag any Mergeable Patches for you when you start it. This feature is extremely useful if you want to keep your list of active mods as short as possible (to speed load times and/or avoid the max 254 plugins limit). If you don't want to use the Mergeable Patches feature in Wrye Bash at this point, you can skip down to Step 5. This great feature of Wrye Bash significantly reduces the number of patch plugins that you need to keep active by completely absorbing many patch plugins into your Bashed Patch. This means that several of the FCOM plugins no longer need to be active as long as they are used in the Bashed Patch.

Using this feature will add the {{BASH: Merge) tag to the description fields of all plugins that are mergeable (not all plugins are mergeable). The text on the Merge-tagged plugin filenames will turn green. You can leave all of these Merge-tagged plugins inactive and then "virtually activate" them in the Bashed Patch config. After you activate your Bashed Patch (we'll get to that shortly), these Merge-tagged plugins will get a special [+] mark to indicate that they are "virtually active", meaning they have been merged into the Bashed Patch. If the Bashed Patch is not active or you look at your load order in OBMM, etc., then you will see that these "virtually active" plugins do not show as being active, which helps to keep your plugin count as low as possible.

To start the Merge process in older versions of Wrye Bash, shift-select your entire mod list (except for the Bashed Patch itself), then right-click anywhere in the list and select Mark Mergeable.

5. If you have an older version of Wrye Bash, then you'll need to run the Mark Levelers command at least once before doing Rebuild Patch. If you have a recent version, it happens automatically and you can skip ahead to Step 6. To do it manually, shift-select your entire mod list (except for the Bashed Patch itself) in Wrye Bash, then right-click anywhere in the list and select Mark Levelers. This will add the proper Bash Relev/Delev tags to the description fields of your plugins. These tags tell Wrye Bash how to properly merge the plugins from various other mods (you can use this same procedure even if you don't use FCOM). The FCOM plugins are already marked properly, but doing this step is still a good idea.

The Mark Levelers command sets the new proper tags for most other mods that need tags. Most likely you'll find that only a few other plugins besides those from FCOM got marked as Levelers. This is normal and perfectly acceptable. You don't need to worry about manually marking any other plugins.

6. Now you'll need to actually create the patch. To do this, simply right-click on the Bashed Patch, 0.esp and select Rebuild Patch. This will give you a menu with a bunch of patch options. Configure any options you want. All of the necessary FCOM files will be correctly configured in the Leveled Lists section without any further action required. Just make sure you activate the Leveled Lists section of the Bashed Patch config by placing a checkmark next to Leveled Lists (if it doesn't have one already). If you're in a hurry, you can just click OK at this point, then let it process for a bit and you're almost done!

If you want to spend a bit more time configuring the other great Bashed Patch options such as the Mergeable Patches from Step 4, then do that before clicking OK. FCOM plugins that are not active and have not been marked as Mergeable will not be processed, so it's usually a good idea to spend a few minutes tweaking the various configuration options before you click OK.

At a minimum, the Leveled Lists section of the config should show the following plugins (assuming you used all the base FCOM options):

FCOM_Francescos.esp
FCOM_BobsArmory.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp

You'll also see most of the MMM spawn options you picked here, such as No Giants, No Spiders, etc. You will not see any plugins that just add new content since that type of mod doesn't need to be handled as a Leveler.

Unlike earlier versions of Wrye Bash, you do not need to worry much about whether all the correct plugins are listed here as long as you followed the Mark Levelers instructions in Step 5. For example, if you are using an expanded load order, then the Leveled Lists section of the config will probably be much longer. It may look more like this (an example based on a configuration for Shivering Isles):

Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm
Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp
Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp
FCOM_Francescos.esp
DLCSpellTomes.esp
Oblivion WarCry EV.esp
FCOM_WarCry.esp
Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
FCOM_Convergence.esp
FCOM_SpawnRatesReduced.esp
FCOM_SaferRoads.esp
Mart's Monster Mod - No xxx.esp

Things you will typically see listed here include the MMM optional plugins for Spawn Rates - Reduced (SRR), Spawn Rates - Reduced Reduced (SRRR), and Spawn Rates - Increased (SRI), No Giants, No Spiders, Safer Roads, and No Werewolves.

The end result of all this work with Levelers is that you will now be able to find enemies and items -- such as Spell Tomes, etc. -- that just wouldn't show up before when using one of the major overhauls.

Once the Bashed Patch has been generated, you'll get a complete report of everything that was merged into it. You can double-check this report to make sure everything worked the way you want it to.

7. Activate your new Bashed Patch! If you used the Mergeable Patches feature from Step 3, then as soon as you activate the Bashed Patch you'll see the special [+] marks next to all of your "virtually active" patch plugins.

8. If you want to use an existing savegame, then you must update your savegame using Update NPC Levels. See "Update Your Savegame" section below.

9. Launch the game and play.

If you get a Crash to Desktop (CTD) during the initial launch, then you almost certainly forgot to install one of the required master files. See the FCOM Setup FAQ for details on this. You'll have to either install the missing files or remove any FCOM options that require the missing files and then repeat the Bashed Patch process. Fortunately, it gets a lot easier after the first few times.

As you continue adding other mods or updates in the future, it's usually a good idea to repeat the Rebuild Patch process (just Step 6) so that any necessary merges will be updated. Also, you'll want to make sure your Bashed Patch continues to be the very last plugin in your load order after adding new stuff (OBMM, for example, will automatically add new plugins to the end of the load order unless you set a config option to keep it from doing this).

If other new mods or FCOM updates make significant changes to NPC levels, then it's a good idea to Update NPC Levels again after rebuilding your patch.

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john palmer
 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:07 pm

Post » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:20 am

Regarding the bashed patch, here is my problem:

Tthe instructions for creating the bashed patch indicate that I need to access a file called Bashed Patch, 0.esp and copy it to the oblivion/data folder etc., however, I have absolutely no idea where this file is placed after running the Wrye Bash installer.exe. What seems to happen is that a sub-directory is created in the Data folder called "bashed patches" and inside are several .csv files, but no Bashed Patch, 0.esp files anywhere to be found.


...Oblivion\Mopy\Extras\Bashed Patch, 0.esp
Just copy that over to the Data folder with the other esps :)
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Sheila Reyes
 
Posts: 3386
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:40 am

Post » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:16 pm

...Oblivion\Mopy\Extras\Bashed Patch, 0.esp
Just copy that over to the Data folder with the other esps :)


Awesome advice - thanks so much, Peste!

I searched for quite a while for an answer to this question with no luck.
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koumba
 
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