http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tale-drozira

You can't read both that, the Herasy, and the Five Songs and tell me Wulfharth has no conenction to Shor.


And there can be more than one of those at a time.

The Khajiti also say that Sheogorath was created when the first Khajit gods gave one of their litter too much Skooma, while TESIV EXPLICITLY states that Sheogorath's existence was caused by the other Daedric Lords cursing Jyggalag (Daedric Prince of Order) to become the embodiment of everything he despised. And yes, I am saying that the Khajit account, the Arcturan Heresy and the Five Songs are at least partly false; Tamriel, like our world, has many untrue myths and legends.

I agree completely, but you cannot be a Shorine and a Dragonborn (who share essences with Akatosh, if only a little).

Except they all support each other.


Pelinal Whitestrake did. It's why he was so insane. He is also our primary source (aside from a MK post where he confirms it directly) on Shezarr and Akatosh being the same, since he hints at it several times throughout the song.

Shezarr may also have gave Alessia the Amulet, and thus have granted her the title Dragonborn.

Good. Now you're taking one source into account. You can use it to argue that Tiber had trained with the Greybeards. Though I doubt he was a master of the Voice. The only reason the Champion of Skyrim was such a quick learner was because he coudl absorb Dragon Souls. Everybody else has to learn the Thu'um the slow way. Not to mention there weren't that many Dragons about back then.


However from the Heresy we have that: "Wulfharth adopts and is adopted by the Nords then. Ysmir the Grey Wind, the Storm of Kyne" (.....) "Naturally, Wulfharth thinks he is the figure of prophecy. He goes directly to High Hrothgar to hear the Greybeards speak. When they do, Ysmir is blasted to ash again. He is not the chosen one.."

And after Ysmir is blasted to ash he goes to find Hjalti: "It is a warrior youth from High Rock. As the Grey Wind goes to find this boy, he hears the Greybeards' warning: remember the color of betrayal, King Wulfharth."

Whom he assists as a cloud of ash or a storm "That night a storm came and visited Hjalti's camp. It spoke with him in his tent. At dawn, Hjalti went up to the gates, and the storm followed just above his head. Arrows could not penetrate the winds around him. He shouted down the walls of Old Hrol'dan, and his men poured in. After their victory, the Nords called Hjalti Talos, or Stormcrown.".

So you can't say that Wulfheart was dead.


Nor does this follow from your source.

A) They do not all support each other, many, many myths and legends contradict each other; and MK is not a canon source. Everyone seems to think he is, but he is not. It has never been confirmed by the developers. I take the games themselves as the ultimate canon source.

Can this not be the same thing?

Okay, maybe not "Master" in the sense that the Dragonborn of TESV is, but at least as powerful a Tong as Ulfric Stormcloak (who spent relatively little time with the Greybeards before going off to fight in the Great War). As for the heresy I always took that passage to mean that Wulfharth deflected the arrows AND that he (not Hjalti) shouted down the gates. Truth be told, my main two problems with the Arcturan Heresy are 1) It claims that Hjalti was neither dragonborn nor a tongue, and 2) Wulfharth (the historical Wulfharth) was called Ysmir, which is a title for dragonborn, not for Shorines.

What we have is Jygalag providing plot exposition to get the story across. While I don't doubt he's an expert at what the hell he thinks happened to him, it still needs to be consistent.

Faith in the Empire for example pegs Sheogoraths creation as coinciding with the creation of Mundus. An event that did not only shape the Aedra but also changed the Daedra as can be seen in the Imperial Census of Daedra. Mundus was created as an original spark, something truly unpredictable. Evidenced in Dyus failure to predict what the champion will do. This leads to suggest that the creation of Mundus fundamentally altered the Aurbis in such a fashion that the concept Jyg embodies, that of complete predictability, can no longer exist.

A good theory, all I am saying is that Jyggalag DID at one point exist as an embodiment of complete order. But yeah, that period of independence and power could have been before the creation of Mundus.

The term Dragonborn is problematic in itself. In the simplest sense it implies a blood relation, but given that some 4000 years have passed between Alessia and Tiber Septim, anybody could rightly be called a Dragon Born by then. If you consider it to be something akin to "The Divine Rights of Kings" then it's something gained by becoming a king, either through inheritance or conquest. If you consider it to be bestowed by prophecy then it is merely a fancy name for "The Hero".

In any case, the term itself is meaningless. More importantly, the term Dragonborn wasn't used until Oblivion, however the Heresy does mention that: "It is the rumbling of the Greybeards that wake him. Though the Empire has crumbled, there are rumors that a chosen one will come to restore it. This new Emperor will defeat the Elves and rule a united Tamriel.". So we have the aspects of the prophesied hero covered.

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Comes to mind that Hjalti never had time to visit the Grey Beards. He was Cuhlecains General in West Cyrodiil at the time. And from Faith in the Empire we have: "Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power o the Greybeards' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a dragon." and from the Heresy: "Wulfharth thinks he is the figure of prophecy. He goes directly to High Hrothgar to hear the Greybeards speak. When they do, Ysmir is blasted to ash again. He is not the chosen one. It is a warrior youth from High Rock." So perhaps this is were Wulfheart got the title of Ysmir from.

I took it as meaning Dragonborn are Shezarrines, or blessed by Lorkhan (The Book of the Dragonborn acts as if you can become a Dragonborn).

Read "The Book of the Dragonborn" it pretty explicitly lays out what the dragonborn are. They are mortals with the souls of Dragons, who are thus able to devour the souls of other dragons. Again, my main point of contention with the Arcturan Heresy are that Tiber Septim (not Wulfharth) went to High Hrothgar and WITHSTOOD the power of the Greybeards thu'um. Arngeir EXPLICITLY tells your character this in TESV. Still, the idea that Wulfharth was a Shorine and was only confusedly known as Ysmir due to HEARING the prophecy from the Greybeards (but not withstanding their voices) is an interesting one, well worth consideration. But, even if true, I still maintain that Hjalti Early-Beard was dragonborn, who learned of his destiny from the Greybeards and also studied the voice with them. The Heresy mention Hjalti AFTER Wulfharth visits them, so Hjalti could easily have spent a few years learning the voice and THEN gone off to fight for Cuhlecain. His learning the thu'um under the Greybeards and serving under Emperor Zero are not at all mutually exclusive.

St. Alessia was the first dragonborn, and was granted this status by Akatosh.

Or Shezarr.

Dragonborn literally have the souls of dragons. Akatosh created all Dragons. Therefore, Akatosh created all dragonborn.

And to add, Akatosh was something that came after Alessia's victory, a deity to appease the nord's sense (they were VERY anti-mer), but allow the newly liberated Cyrodiils continue worshipping Auri-El.

Also, gotta see beyond the Imperial Propaganda. The religion of the Nine is nothing more than an extent of it.

The Cyrodiilic Nine Divines, like most relgions of Tamriel, worships the same Aedra, just viewed through each race and culture's particular prejudices. Aka (I used the term Akatosh because it is the most well known) doesn't favor man over mer, he is too busy being the embodiment of time and preserving mundus through subtle means, such as the Dragonborn.

The Cyrodiilic Akatosh is based on the Altmeri Auriel, a genocidal warrior king who wants to see all Men wiped out and Mer to be freeded from Mundus.

Except the Nords didn't like the Elven pantheon too much back then, so they threatened to abandon Alessia's... "Empire". So Alessia made Akatosh a lot more Man friendly, pro-Mundus, and all together more Shezarr like.

The bottom line here is that Talos was a dragonborn. He was also granted the Stormcrown by the Greybeards. 'You are Ysmir now..."


Wulfharth was a Shezarine. The guy was disintegrated at Red Mountain and reassembled from his ashes. (confirming the known propensity of the Shezarrine to recurr as long as conditions require it) Talos on the other hand died only once.


Talos is NOT Wulfharth. Talos NEVER became a Shezzarine. he Mantled Lorkhan to become a deity in his own right.


In becoming a deity he fulfilled the goal that man will overcome the barriers placed upon them by immortal rulers

I'm not seeing that many parallels between Auriel and Akatosh, even if in-universe they're considered the same being. Akatosh seems closer to the Dragons' god than the Elves god, while Auriel is ironically more like Alduin. The thing is, we don't know much about Borhamu or what the dragons think of him, considering his creations followed Alduin, who posed as the him. And there's a much stronger connection with the Dragon God because of Akatosh's strong association with the Dragonborn.

Ever since Alessia, the Dragon God was linked to the Dragonborn, as he also appeared to Tiber Septim/Hjalti in a vision at Sancre Tor and appeared through Martin's sacrifice. And it seems the Dragonborn possess the same need to dominate as the Dragons, hence both Reman's and Tiber Septim's conquests (especially if we take MK's latest work under the name Eyesore to be canon), and Tiber Septim's questionable peacetime use of Numidium. Yet through the Dragonborn, the undoing of the world, which is what Auriel and Alduin seek, has been thwarted repeatedly.

Personally, I find it interesting that Paarthurnax uses the name Akatosh at all, considering he spends most of his time at the Throat of the World.

Edit: Fixed some wording.

Auri-El is the Altmer's God of Time, who wishes to help mer in their goal of destroying men and being freed from Mundus.
Akatosh is the Imperial's God of Time, who wishes to help men in their goal of destroying mer and persevering through the test Mundus represents.

I don't think Alduin ever posed as Akatosh/Bormahu. It's his claim as being First-Born of Akatosh/Bormahu, and thus extra special, that the other dragons started to question.

He did meet with people, though. I remember asking a question to him when I first met him, if anybody else has made it to The Throat of the World, and he said not in a hundred years. Which implies people were reaching the summit and meeting Paarthurnax up to a hundred years ago (I wonder if it also implies there was another Dragonborn a hundred years ago; are Dragonborn the only ones that the Greybeards allow up to the summit? They seem very protective of Paarth otherwise, since the Blades have long made it known they want to kill him).

Time Traveling Megatron's tend to do that.

(I somehow missed this post)

I was talking about the Song of Wulfharth and the Tale of Dro'Zira. Both of them show Wulfharth's connection to Lorkhan, and both of them present Wulfharth being at Red Mountain. That shows that Wulfharth was indeed being revived.

Yes, all the myths concordict each other. That's why you have to look for similarties between them to find out what happened.

MK also wrote the Song of Pelinal, which presents Akatosh as being the "other half" of Shezarr.

Would a member of the Temple really know the secrets of the Tribunal though? I always interpreted Where Were You? as each respective province soap-boxing against Cyrodiil, with the Temple taking the chance to brag or something similar. What Tower did the Tribunal break to gain their godhood? They just hit the Heart with Sunder and drank some immortality water didn't they? And they stayed Mundane for the most part save when they die and respawn. If the Selectives replaced the gods, it would have transposed them with ghosts and not have left them with their old bodies to remain on Nirn. And how do you factor in the expressed purpose of the Selectives', that they set out to edit Akatosh? If they were truly looking to replace the Aedra, why would the sources not plainly state it?

Which question? Concerning the Selectives wanting to become even more mortal and powerless by replacing god-shaped aetherial swamp gas? That's what I'm asking. Why would they wish that upon themselves? I'd guess that they either didn't know the gods were dead or thought they could become powerful enough to return the Aedra to their pre-Dawn status, but that's conjecture built upon conjecture. We don't know enough about the Selectives to guess their motives aside from what the sources say, in that they didn't like sharing a deity with the Altmer.