Not sure if any text is needed beyond the topic title.

Pretty much. Then again, the consensus was that the heresey was (mostly) correct, as imperial texts tend to be filled with 1% truth 99% hot gas.

Strictly speaking, all it really confirms is that Hjalti Early-Beard was a historical person from Alcaire who was present at the Battle of Old Hroldan and was a deadringer for the Dovahkiin.

Everything else is just implication.

True, but isn't that a bit too coincidental to just write off? I suppose it doesn't flat-out confirm the book is true in everything, but it very strongly supports it as being the real origin story for Talos.

And before anyone mentions that the player can be any race, it's likely the ghost is confusing you for Hjalti due to your spirit. If Hjalti was Talos, then he was a dragonborn, and that means he had a dragon's soul like the player does.

It confirms Tiber was AKA Hjalti. But also remember conspiracy theories will grab facts and attempt to use their absence in official texts as proof of their theories.

There is little evidence otherwise that I know of in support of the FIve Songs/Heresy. But then again (and this goes for both sides), absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't think there IS a 'truth'. There's MK's theories (most of which are technically 'unofficial', even though they have strong basis in fact and he has prior knowledge of TES). Todd Howard said he didn't want to define Dragonborn all that much, he wanted players to interpret it as they will.

A wonderful thing about TES is that you can interpret it as you will, there is no concrete truth in many cases. Everything is written in-universe, and therefore everything is subjective and capable of being wrong. If you don't believe something is true (I don't personally buy into the Five Songs or Heresy all that much), you have just as much evidence as those who do believe them. The universe is open enough that you can believe what you want, and that's what makes it so great.

This topic has been discussed before, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1242794-arcturian-heresy-confirmed/. To note, this was before Skyrim was released.

EDIT: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1326417-arcturian-heresy-is-false-but-hjalti-was-talos/

The true identity of Talos might have been obscurred by a possible Dragonbreak when he activated Numundium, making both versions true.

I really hope that isn't the case. Then we'd have another Warp in the West and those are just silly.

Well, looking at the possible amounts of Dragonbreaks in the known history would make for a laugh then
Let's see:
Using the Staff of Chaos to defeat Jagar Tharn and crossing dimentions could trigger it since it supposedly have power beyond imagination.
The Warp in the West happened.
Destroying the physical form of the Heart of Lorkhan could likely trigger it.
Akatosh appearng as on Nirn.
Alduin being destroyed in Sovngarde.

And these are just the ones from the games, being slightly sipported by the fact that no-one never seem to know who the hero is afterwards.

Who Talos was is probably one of those things that are meant to be left undecided, but given hints of either side being correct making it a matter of faith for the people of Tamriel(or more correctly a basis for discussion for the players).

The concept Dragon Break didn't exist back then. So we can rule that one out.


Not quite. You're thinking of the Dragon Break as some mystical event occurring in circumstances unexplained. It is actually an event with very specific effects that occurs under specific conditions. These generally include actual contradicting accounts of events by a large number of people. And as far as I understand it, they occurs when gods walk Mundus in their full form. This can be derived from Vehks teachings and Sermons which describe the world as a vessel for the being that will push the world to a higher stage.


The idea is correct but you have to extend it to the duration of the whole game. Only the game can explain why there are so many conflicting accounts of hero's in that specific time span. It is certainly a nice way to explain how it was possible for seven Anumidia to show up in Daggerfall. People often invoke a Dragon Break here but if the Brass God was activated outside of a Dragon Break there would be no conflict about who gained control. Therefore the Brass God must have been activated in one.

The other events you mentioned are significant but with regards to the Dragon Break merely coincidental.


I don't think so. There is plenty to indicate there were two people behind Talos, Not one. References to the Two-Headed King in the sermons. A conflicting location of birth. The whole Heresy and Talos eventually taking the place of Shezarr (Shor).

As I am sure you noticed I specificly said those events could have triggered them, I do not claim it did.
Anyways, the point about the Brass God triggering a timebreak seems to support the possibility of one occuring when Tiber Septim activated it, making it possible that Tiber Septim is and isn't Talos of Atmora at the same time, much like Vehk the God and Vehk the Mortal are the same, yet they are not the same.

Edit: I just remembered that time was shattered towards the end of the Dragonwars with an Elder Scrolls(possibly being a dragonbreak), and that Vehk became both god and mortal by using the Heart of Lorkhan. I think it is safe to say that we only know a few of the possible ways dragonbreak may be triggered.
And claiming that the concept did not exist when the Staff of Chaos was wielded does not really matter since that is simply that they had needed it for the story. The Warp in the West wasn't known before Oblivion, but it still happened.

The distinction seems irrelevant. The events I commented on neither did nor could have triggered a Dragon Break.


Slow down. You're mixing way too much together. The Tribunal used the Heart and Kargrenacs enchantments. The Brass God was not involved. You don't need the Brass God to explain how Tiber became Talos. We already have that covered:

Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

edit: The way Tiber and Ysmir became Talos happened because Tiber and Ysmir act as if they are single person. Because Ysmir was an avatar of Shor, Tiber eventually becomes undistinguishable from Shor. This differs from Vivec who merely differentiates between the mortal and immortal parts of his life.


So far we have five known periods when time became non linear. The Dawn Era, the Tribunals Apotheosis, the Dragon Break, the Incident in Rimmen and Warp in the West. They all have in common that time became non-linear and gods were walking Mundus. Between the Intercept and the Sermons we can confirm that gods walking Mundus have control over time and generally muck it up too. So to show that a Dragon Break occurred we need to be roughly able to show the presence of a god and/or non-linearity in time.

The Warp in the West was known before Oblivion. It did not bear that name however. From Morrowinds When the Dragon Broke: "You did it [broke the Dragon] again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was it in all three places at once?". But now I'm nitpicking. The important bit is that we have an actuall acount that describes the involvement of a (brass) god and the non-linearity in time during the Warp in the West. This can not be said about anything involving the staff of Chaos or the other events you listed.

Is it correct that Vivec could also be Talos, at least in one reality from endless pre-Dragon Break continuum?
A question for MK, really. =P

If you say so.

If I sound like a pompous ass, it's not on purpose. I'm trying to fit allot of ideas into a very short bit of text.

If anything is unclear just ask.

The Five Songs of King Wulfharth and The Arcturian Heresy exist to explain the enantiomorph, mantling, and reincarnation concerning Talos, and to that degree it's true. The Ghost of Old H'roldan confirms two things: Tiber Septim was a different person in youth than after becoming Emperor, proving that he and Ysmir Wulfharth became the same person. Also, the Dovahkiin is spiritually connected to Tiber Septim or Ysmir or Shor or all of them. The ghost could have been scaring away travelers since the inn came into service, but the Dovahkiin is the one he saw as Tiber. When Talos Stormcrown ascended the 7000 steps and listened to the Greybeards, he emerged so powerful that all who looked upon him could only see a dragon. It doesn't matter if you're a purple haired Khajiit woman, but when the ghost looks upon you he only sees Hjalti.

Well, some sources would be nice.

Fair enough. The basics:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke describes the general effects involving weird time but of real interest are three specific statements:

From Mehra Nabisi, Mistress of the Tribunal Temple: "Do not ask us where we were when the Dragon Broke, for, of all the world, only we truly know, and we might just show you how to break it again.” This indicates that the Tribunal Gods know how to break the Dragon. Explaining how this was done might show Cyrodiil how to do it again.

From R'leyt-harhr, Khajiit, Tender to the Mane: "You did it again with Big Walker, not once, but twice! Once at Rimmen, which we'll never learn to live with. The second time it was in Daggerfall, or was it Sentinel, or was it Wayrest, or was it in all three places at once?" This indicates that aside from the Break caused by the Selective there have been two Dragon Breaks caused by the Brass God. One is the Incident in Rimmen, the other the Warp of the West.

From Mannimarco, God of Worms: "As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.” This indicates that the actions of the Selectives showed Manimacro how to become a god, indicating they too became gods.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/warp-west is primarily a collection of accounts that describe how different conflict events occurred in parallel and were resolved afterwards.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/ages-man mostly because it indicates that during the Dawn Era when gods walked the earth was unstable. "The mortal plane was at this point highly magical and dangerous. As the Gods walked, the physical make-up of the mortal plane and even the timeless continuity of existence itself became unstable. (....) Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a Volcano formed. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilized. Elven history, finally linear, began (ME2500)."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept mostly interesting because it confirms that gods control time which is not so strongly stated in the previous. "The Jills did not have their full powers; rather, I should say, all the mundex spirits had every power at every time amendment at every ordering, which is to say none of them could ever fully express; our world was young and so were its architect gods."

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/thirty-six-lessons-vivec-sermon-fourteen mostly because part of the ceremonies of Vivecs marriage includes this: Vivec lay with Molag Bal for eighty days and eight, though headless. In that time, the Prince placed the warrior-poet's feet back and filled them with the blood of Daedra. In this way Vivec's giant-form remained forever harmless to good earth. The Pomegranate Banquet brought many spirits back from the dead so that the sons and daughters of the union had much to eat besides fruit. Which indicates that Vivec walking on Mundus would be harmfull, much like the Brass God walking Mundus is harmfull. Which suggests that the Tribunal can also cause the inconsistency of time.

What I haven't shown and can't show: The unstable time around Rimmen. Though we've got the statements of R'leyt-harhr to show this is indeed a Dragon Break.

I started thinking about this line again. Does this say that he was cast from known existence? Is that the underworld then? A void? What was that source that discussed "voids"?

It still seems like to great a jump. Yes, the Dragon Break showed Mannimarco how to become a god, but it doesn't directly state that he learned because the Selectives became gods. He just states that Nirn returned to the Dawn, Gods walked then ascended again, and he followed suit. And why would the Selectives become powerless ghost gods? Eight stars fell, but the Aedra aren't stars, so why would stars fall?

Hjalti Early-Beard WAS Talos, and he was Dragonborn. As a Dragonborn who visited (and presumably trained with) the Greybeards, he was a master of the voice. He shouted down the gates of Old Hroldan, not Wulfharth, who was dead by this time. Wulfharth WAS Ysmir, Dragon of the North, but Ysmir is a title, given to Dragonborn who withstand the Greybeard's Thu'um. Thus, Wulfharth was endowed with part of Aka's power, and COULD NOT HAVE BEEN an avatar of Shor. Zurin Arctus, however, WAS a Shorine (I believe).

Akatosh and Lorkhan are often confused with each other, due to their relationship with each other.

Also, a Khajiit story about Red Mountain depticts Wulfharth and the Nords at Red Mountain, so other races have seen him.

Cross referencing it with the Monomyth and Intercept should clear that up for you.


The glories of the Dawn, when gods walked the earth. Something which the new God-Kings of Morrowind could teach Cyrodiil to bring about again. The only thing for them to teach is the secret of their own apotheosis.


Good questions, perhaps the question is wrong?



You should look up Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk from our previous discussion.

Sources?

Exactly, and since Wulfharth was a very respected king, it would make sense that his heirs or successors would want to remember him as related to Shor rather than Akatosh (who was a very foreign Cyrodiilic/Elven God at the time).

In TESV, the Greybeards explicitly call the Dragonborn Ysmir, and then say that their predecessors bestowed the same title on Tiber Septim when he proved he was dragonborn by withstanding their combined thu'um. Ysmir is a title, and one only given to proven dragonborn.