I had Veronica too, but even with her the amount of responsibility they give you was just plain out of character. If she isn't, they do put a collar on you, but all you have to do to remove it is scare off an NCR ranger; you are then apparently considered perfectly trustworthy, have the collar removed, and then embark on a number of highly sensitive missions to recover Brotherhood intelligence and equipment. Not at all in character for the Western Brotherhood, in my opinion.

They do but I'm pretty sure they take it off after the first quest to get rid of the NCR ranger camping next door. Or the NCR guy will remove it, if you don't mind killing some brotherhood. Actually, there are a hell of a lot of logical fallacies surrounding the entire quest line and how the Brotherhood have been living in their lockdown.

It is. The Pitt raiders treat you better than the Brotherhood if you go in uninvited

Edit: I loaded an earlier save so i never knew that's all that's required to become trustworthy, pretty silly indeed.

:D
That is very true, but the Pitt raiders actually have a logical reason for trusting you after you fight in the arena. The Brotherhood doesn't have a logical, in-character reason as to why that faction would suddenly heap all of their most important tasks onto some random wanderer that they barely even know. They also do remove the collar nearly immediately.

This is all to common in RPGs though and I only bring such things up when people want to nitpick about sensibleness in video games. There literally is almost no reason anyone should ever trust you with anything ever. Even from the get-go there's no reason Doc Mitchell should give you his pipboy.

Even better is the last quest.

"You want to join the Brotherhood? No, we never do that... unless you have done something so important... so profound... that we can make an exception. Oh, I know what you can do. Go install this device in that radio tower over there."



Even the design is bad and it ranks closely to "Return to sender" for sending you in multiple directions on a tedious collection/fetch quest.

Oh, I agree it happens a lot, I'm just pointing out that the logic of saying NV is much better because stuff like Tenpenny Tower was silly, or claiming the Brotherhood acted horribly out of character in FO3, is rather silly when there are fallacies just as big in New Vegas, and the Brotherhood acts very much so out of character.

Also, has anybody addressed the fact that Caesar just believes you blew up the bunker because "the ground shook"? He can't even send a legionaire or two with you to check? Personally, I thought that was patently absurd. Both games have plenty of nonsensical stuff.

Have you been to Camp Golf? That's where the pipeline starts I think (might be Hoover Dam, but I didn't see any pipes coming out of Hoover Dam); you'll know it when you see it.

They were aware of the dangers of radiation. All the Rad-X and Radaway exist in such great quantities because it was so prevalent in their lives. Your mechanic would have to pop a dose of Rad-X before changing your oil. Instead of flu shots, the average citizen would go to the clinic for their annual Radaway treatment. It's such a common thing in their lives that while they're aware of the dangers, they're not afraid of it.



I remember The Glow. I went down there. I don't seem to remember finding much of any real valuable tech. All the good stuff was moved to Mariposa before the bombs fell.



I remember Mariposa. I also remember all the horrible things the original founders of the Brotherhood of Steel saw and did there, and set out never to return.



I remember the few tiny bunkers watching the Enclave. There's a huge difference between walking into a destroyed base and taking stuff lying around and trying to take it out of the hands of a large militant force. When first discovering a well armed potentially hostile force, you don't run in guns blazing. You set up listening posts and watch them before deciding on an action to take.



Should we instead believe that the Brotherhood of Steel never leaves its bunker in Lost Hills? Never had any aspiration to expand?



Did you even open a dialog with Elder Lyons or some of the other paladins and scribes? They're different for a reason. It's pretty well explained. And the "normal" Brotherhood still exists in the Outcasts.

Did they have to use the Brotherhood of Steel? No. But they took a familiar face, fleshed out so more backstory, and gave them the role. Nothing is contradictory. Things and people change.

Eh this is going back a ways but, The whole LP thing was horrendous to me. Yeah he has some funny dialog but it was completely worthless as a weapon of war. I giant slow moving Target. If it wasn't invincible in the last battle it would have been easily destroyed. The Chinese had cruise missiles and nukes too.

Right and they knew that nuclear weapons were pretty dangerous things. They were even more aware of it after nuclear weapons burned the whole planet. Why wouldn't they recognize the danger of setting up a town around a nuclear weapon?



I remember finding an immensely powerful fully functional super-computer, tons of deactivated robots, energy weapons, a minigun, combat armor, plenty of other advanced weapons and ammunition, and tons of research data. The only hazard was radiation. The Brotherhood knows how to deal with radiation and they refused to send anyone to check out the Glow.



Shouldn't stop their descendants who were mostly unaware of the history and never had some kind of commandment to never return. I'm aware they mention the location being lost but they never even bother looking for Mariposa and once again this is a place much closer to home than Washington D.C.



Right. Their actions in Fallout 2 were pretty logical. So why did they rush in guns blazing as you put it to Washington D.C.: a totally unexplored area on the other side of the continent in pursuit of technology that might not even be there and could certainly be the territory of a faction at least as technologically advanced as the Enclave?



No but this is a strawman. I'm not saying the Brotherhood never leaves the bunker. I'm saying their sudden decision to send an expedition to a completely unexplored area on the other side of a largely unexplored continent just in the off-chance that there might be some cool technology left is completely illogical and at odds with everything we know about the Brotherhood.



I never said their differences weren't explained. I'm saying it was a stupid concept to move the Brotherhood across an entire continent just to fill a role that they don't even fit.



Well it's not contradictory but it's certainly idiotic. If I said Lyon was called to go to Washington D.C. by telepathic aliens who transported him and his followers across the country in their spaceship and told him to protect the people of D.C. it wouldn't be contradictory. But it'd be really stupid.

I wouldn't say the "normal brotherhood" was the outcasts either....What bethosft did was take the "normal" BoS split them into two extremes and put them in there DC wastes.

You see it stretching from Camp Gold to Vegas, and there are a few water stations near Vegas that (presumably) keep it clean.

I don't think Lyon's building a little goodwill by being "good guys" is neccesarily stupid, nor is the trek to DC.

DC's a pretty logical place for a group with a lot of ex-US army data to want to go eventually.

The Brotherhood aren't farmers. People who don't want to be Knights, Paladins or Scribes leave. As such Lyons is going to need some sort of supply line - Powered armour doesnt feed you, and you can't just live on Protien alone. With him being limited in resoruces, there's other items that may simply be easier to buy than dedicate resources to manufacturing (Stimpacks and other Chems perhaps). Fallout's trade is very much on a personal basis, and you're going to get a better deal from someone who likes you and can see the value in keeping you alive.

I'm sorry, but this can no longer be used as a strike against Bethesda for bad writing. Eden had a reason. He no longer had faith in Col. Autumn to carry out his will. The Lone Wanderer was a very long shot to be sure, but it was believed he already had the activation code so Eden hoped to appeal to his sensibility rather than torture him for it. Being the supercomputer that he is, he's already calculated every possible outcome, and agreeing with him is the only logical choice.

Why in the WORLD did Caesar give me the platinum chip and ask me to destroy Mr. House's equipment in the bunker? Me, the guy that destroyed at least one of his terror squads, clears out every small camp he comes across, and killed the spy at Camp McCarran? He even mentions these deeds. He knows I did them. The radiation was extremely mild, the robots very easy. It required no lockpicking or science skill. If he didn't want to do it himself, he has any number of trustworthy lackeys to send in to get the job done. The only choice worse than me would be a high ranking NCR agent. That is a huge mistake.

The funny thing is though, if not for this forum I would have just played through that and not worried too much about it

Because you're not just in the middle of a small camp there are you?

You're in the middle of his army's main camp. With his most veteran troops at his side. Ceasar doesnt know specifically whats in the bunker - just that he wants it destroyed; he knows the one way in, and one way out is through him. Theres hundreds, if not thousands of his men with guns pointed right at you - you might be good, but when you outnumber someone hundreds/thousands to one, I'm not really that worried about them trying something.

Disabiling the robots did require science skill.

No, my gun required no science skill to fire.

And I didn't do as Caesar asked, and he doesn't even bother to send someone with me to keep me in line or to check out afterward to see if I did actually do it. This is far worse than the Eden situation in every way possible.

Which is not disabiling them - thats destroying them

He didn't need to, he has a good faith reason to believe you did it. The earth shook, so you must of destroyed it. Given the apparent evidence that you completed your task, and the fact that seemingly only a fool would go against him in his very camp why would it occur to him to think you didn't?

He also doesn't want his men going down there and getting dangerous ideas. If you talk to him about why he doesnt send his men down there he'll reveal that to you - he doesnt want his men to get the idea there can be conquest without sacrifice. Robot soldiers could bring conquest without sacrifice - any soldiers he sends down there he feel's he'll have to have them killed to prevent that idea being circulated.

Yes it can, because no matter how you slice it the entire plot point makes no sense at all. Autumn no longer wanted to obey Eden, that's true enough, but he has hundreds of soldiers and dozens of robots at his command, surely one of them would be a better choice. Or if he 'has' to give the FEV to the wanderer solely for plot reasons, a better explanation than "Oh this will kill every slightly mutated human out there" could have been used by the supercomputer... in other words, he should have had an extremely convincing lie handy.
Here is a lie that I came up with as I'm writing this, right now, off the top of my head: "Hello, Mr. Wanderer. I happen to have a water purification agent handy that will slowly remove all radiation from the Atlantic over the course of the next two decades. Sadly, my men do not know the code to start the purifier, and thus haven't been able to make use of it. Perhaps I should give you the agent along with an armed escort to take to the purifier, and you can put it in for me? You see, we both have the same goals. Let us help one another out."

Would that have worked? Well, maybe not on everyone, but I suspect a LOT of people would have fallen for it. The supercomputer should be smarter than me.



You can ask him that very question and he explains it to you. The reason given is that he doesn't want the idea of robots winning their war for them in circulation. He wants his underlings to have the mentality of warriors, and he would have to send someone valuable down there he trusts enough to get the job done, and then kill that person.

To give my own personal thoughts on the matter, if you actually look at Caesar's personality throughout the game it's not at all out of character. Caesar has been in the habit of giving orders and being obeyed without question for so long that disobedience is something he doesn't expect anymore. If you refuse to do as he asks on any mission, or question him at all he throws a tantrum.

Oh, and don't forget he has a brain tumor. So we can compare the brain damaged old man's mistake (that is still suitable for the character), to the obvious blunder of the supercomputer... which makes less sense?

The mission didn't require that they be disabled, just bypassed somehow. This did not require science skill.



No, he had no good faith reason to believe I did anything he asked. Everything I've done up to this point is in direct opposition of him. Only a complete idiot would believe with no real evidence that I did as he asked. Caesar is a bit special, but he's no idiot.



Yes, and? Killing off a soldier or two is preferable to trusting a proven enemy.



This is assuming that a computer can lie. Self awareness is one thing, but lying is a human trait. I realize his background stories aren't true, as they are simply an amalgamation of various past presidents, but when presented with a direct question, can he actually lie?

They both have their plot holes, and I don't think that either one is better or worse than the other. Neither of our arguments can prove one way or another, as both situations leave too much to interpretation and imagination.

So feeling the apparent distruction isnt proof? add to that in his mind only a complete idiot would defy his will in his camp - and he knows from your actions you aren't an idiot.

Apparently. He said specifically he was a boy that grew up in Kentucky with a dog.

Well that's backtracking from you saying that the Fallout 3 point is clearly invalid and the New Vegas one is clearly a gaping plot hole.

Though lying is a human trait, this is an AI constructed by humans... further, a computer personality in popular fiction will typically do anything to execute its primary objective. The HAL-9000 has no qualms about lying like hell, for example. They should have played Eden more like the HAL-9000, which is the best evil computer in the history of fiction.

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what you say or suggest some people will just never like Bethesda's version of fallout.

They will pick flaws and nit pick and say how much better NV is.

Lucky for me I am one of these people that enjoyed both games. So in the end People like me win because we get to play to great games

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my first statement. I never meant to imply that Eden was perfect and Caesar was bad. I was just trying to point out from a 'F3 vs NV' standpoint that "bad writing" isn't solely the failing of Fallout 3. They both have little things that can be nitpicked until the brahmin come home.

I love both games, and aside from the obvious changes with crafting and such, I don't think they're really as different as some people think.

I love both games, and both have flaws. Though Fallout 3 does have some really, really bad writing. It's just completely uninspired, and is a real let down in such a great setting. A bit like having a granite pebble set in a platinum band.. what a waste. New Vegas has flaws, too, but the writing is better in almost every instance one could bring up.




I enjoyed both, too. Vegas just has much better writing, it falls short in other areas. I'm not hating on Fallout 3, just one aspect of it.