Alduin ent dead.

ded*. yu can tel wen dem ehjukated fo'k tri an mokk us.

Why does everyone believe this heresy?

Which one? That Talos is plural or that Dragonborn will become a part of it.

Talos the man and Talos the god are two different things.

Talos the god is a Shezzarine conglomerate; DB will become a part of it if DB is a Shezzarine.

That Talos is plural, yes. I'm in the mood to do some reading on it, but don't know much more than what The Arcturian Heresy says.

Something that MK said, or something like that.
Acturian Heresy is a good starting place.

So... the Daedric Lord of Nietzsche?

I like the question Trillid is raising. Usually, if you take Morrowind and its expansions, or Oblivion and its expansions, there is a sort of 'connect-the-dots' identity of the main character, ala CoC-Shezarrine mantler-Sheogorath = Lorkhan-a-like. I believe it is a fair question to begin to ask how the dots connect this time, though we most likely won't be able to fully answer until more expansions come.

It all seems pretty simple to me. Dragonborn (who is historically also Tullius and Ulfric) become the new god of man. Whether or not they even know it. Because it repeats the Arcturian Heresy pretty closely, even to being very human-centric. Dragonborn, plainly a Lorkhanic entity because he stands against Alduin and therefore starts off as a Shezzarine anyways, is the "wildcard" third man, the observer and/or traitor depending on perspective. Tullius stands in for the King, as the symbol of Imperial authority in Skyrim, as well as the Rebel, fostering thoughts about the future regarding the Dominion. Ulfric stands in for the Rebel, as the leader of, durr, the rebellion, as well as the King, being given the title of High King of the Nine Holds by his men before the game starts, even if he never acted in that capacity. The balance of power between who will be remembered as what is dependent entirely on which side the Dragonborn took: forgiveness and loyalty, or vengeance and freedom?

My theory is that alduin's soul went back to akatosh, and when you die akatosh will offer combine your soul with alduin's soul thus making you the new world eater and you would rule over the dragons and perhaps akatosh would have you and the dragons be the guardians of time, making sure it ended when it was supposed to.

I always have liked this theory. But as much I can't really see my Argonian becoming a god of man.

Inclined to agree, particularly because the word "Talos" is probably the most repeated word in Skyrim. Very Nerevarine-esque. Have no idea where becoming a vampire lord fits into that, but hey...


Again, see Nerevar/Morrowind. Incarnates/mantlers can start out as anyone, it's their inner soul and/or actions that count (god does that sound like a trite postmodern truism).

People keep mistaking the Dragonborn for some Lorkhanic entity...or confusing him with Lorkhan's Avatars...

They are not the same.

They are not the same.


Their interests are aligned because the Aedra known as Lorkhan created humans.

Tiber Septim and the Dragonborn are not Lorkhanic

Sorry, I meant "god of all mortals." Talos 2.0 and all that.

Since one of Tiber Septim is Wulfarth, and since the Skyrim Dragonborn is a new Talos, then actually they both are and you're just dead wrong on even the most basic and obvious facts.

By what do we mean "Lorkhanic?" Do we mean fulfilling the ideologies and principles of Lorkhan? Or do we mean simply Mannish? Inclined toward change rather than stasis? An avatar of Lorkhan's will in the world?

It is good to denote meaning when dealing in vague terms. But in any case that I can see, the Talos and new Dragonborn are Lorhkanic.

In terms of Talos, the answer is just "yes." In terms of Skyrim DB, he/she could fulfill any or none of those based on your decisions, but it pretty consistently Lorkhanic in that he stands against the dragon-god in regards to the future of the world. So Dragonborn is a little less consistent, but doing the main quest or civil war ensures at least one.

That's the way I see it.

that made my head hurt.... So what i get from that (im particularly bad at this part of the lore so bare with me) is that tullius, ulfric and the dragonborn are all shezzarines and in death will all combine to become the new god of man? like tiber septium, wulfharth, and zurin arctus? This is all very confusing and everthing that i just said could've been completely wrong.

Sorta. The idea is that Dragonborn is either a Shezzarine, for either having Shezzar's soul, or by mantling Shezzar by aligning himself with Shezzar's interests (protecting the Mundus from the dragons and the Thalmor). Tulius and Ulfric and Dragonborn scream the same trichotomy as with Hjalti/Tiber and Wulfharth and Zurin, which is where that theory comes from....I think.

I don't think I'd want the Dragonborn to be a Shezarrine. Pelinal Whitestrake and King Wulfharth seem like insane [censored]s, and Shor himself is described as a bloodthirsty warlord.

Just like the average PC.

Tullius + Ulfric Stormcloak = Talos Stormcrown... + you. Add in the Rebel/King dynamic, plus you taking on Shor's role in fighting Alduin.

It could be a case of Enantiomorph-ing, or it could not. If it's not... that is really one hell of a coincidence.



And Nerevar was a devoted Padomaic. Cyrus is often a greedy [censored]. Don't get me started on Vivec.

As Dargor implied, if a bit of protagonist sociopathy here and there disturbs you, you may be in the wrong game universe .

They all did really good things too, however, just like Pelinal and the rest. TES nuance/greyness is why many of us are here.

To be clear again

Tiber Septim is NOT Wulfharth....he is also not Zurin Arctus


If he was the same individual as Tiber Septim, the Greybeards would not have told Wulfharth he is NOT the one, and then send him back from High Hrothgar


Tiber Septim is Hjatl the Dragonborn.

When Hjatl showed up, The undead Wulfharth had to pay him a visit to introduce himself and offer assistance


Wulfharth is a bona fide avatar of Lorkhan who got reassembled from his ashes after dying at Red Mountain


When I say Lorkhanic I mean it in the strict sense that Lorkhan has decided to act in the world and has chosen to take an avatar

Talos man + Ysmir Wulfharth + Zurin Arctus = Talos god

Wulfharth was a shezzarine.

Are we using the word "Shezzarine" interchangably with "Enatiomorph"? SHOULD we be doing that?

I think this may be what is bothering vilnii. Only one member of the triune being mantles Lorkhan/Shezarr (to choose the names from the version of the first coherent Mundic version of the Enatiomorph story I am familiar with). Another mantles Auri-El/Akatosh. A third mantles... Magnus? I'm not entirely sure how that story is supposed to work.

One and One make Eleven. Could you tell the difference if the Ones traded places?

Personally, I think there is a certain amount of name similarity that points to which is which in the Talos construct. Tullius is similar to Talos, and thus he could be the historical "Talos" in this version of the story... and I am unaware of who "Talos" was, historically. Ulfric sounds, to me, a bit like Wulfharth, and both Ulfric and Wulfharth went to the Graybeards first... but were not The One. Meanwhile "Stormcloak" sounds like "Stormcrown", and contributes the second part of the name "Talos Stormcloak"... er, I mean "Tullius Stormcrown", er... you get my point. Hjalti is an entirely historical name, contributing no part of his given name to the Talos construct, and yet regarded by those devoted to more mundane historical account as the "real" Talos. 's name plays a similar role.

If Ulfric is the victor, that makes him the Shezarrine, leading his people to a New World (a post-Imperial Skyrim). However, if susequently manages to accomplish what so many players desperately wish they could do, that is kill Ulfric and take his throne from him, that individual mantles Akatosh.

Ulfric is Shezarrine in another way. He plays the role of one who defends an "original" kingship (that of Lorkhan/Shezarr/Wulfharth, who was the original Prince of Tamriel, at least according to Mankar Camoran) that was overthrown and replaced by that of an Anuic figure: Auri-El/Akatosh/Cyrodillic Emperor.

So in a semantic fashion, vilnii could be right: there is a difference between Tiber Septim and Wulfharth. However, both are names that contribute to a triune being that ultimately mantles the Original Battle between Anu and Padomay: the Enatiomorph.

No, we shouldn't be using shezzarine synonomously with enantiomorph, and afaik nobody is.

These UESP articles might go some way to clearing up the confusion about the man Talos, and the god:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wulfharth.com