Dovahkiin's Ascension to Godhood

Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:37 am

what if he dies fighting a vampire with the dawnguard did you thought about that?
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john palmer
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:28 am

If I'm right (my Talos knowledge is lacking), Talos the man is Hjalti. Talos the god is the whole Enatiomorph.
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Kelli Wolfe
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:18 pm

This. This is how Kyne and Kynereth, Akatosh and Alduin, Shor and Shezzar, etc. are different gods.
"He is the self-proclaimed First-Born ofhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akatosh, elder brother of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax, and aspect of Akatosh"
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BEl J
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:15 am

"He is the self-proclaimed First-Born ofhttp://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akatosh, elder brother of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Paarthurnax, and aspect of Akatosh"
That may be true or not. Alduin says that, but at the same time, Alduin was a dragon god of time before Akatosh was invented. Of course, if the theory that dragons can't remember split timelines, that would make sense that Alduin doesn't remember existing before Akatosh.
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Spencey!
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:11 pm

If I'm right (my Talos knowledge is lacking), Talos the man is Hjalti. Talos the god is the whole Enatiomorph.

Bear in mind the accounts of his early life conflict. Only in one of them is he Hjalti.
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Jaki Birch
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:13 am

Are we using the word "Shezzarine" interchangably with "Enatiomorph"? SHOULD we be doing that?

I think this may be what is bothering vilnii. Only one member of the triune being mantles Lorkhan/Shezarr (to choose the names from the version of the first coherent Mundic version of the Enatiomorph story I am familiar with). Another mantles Auri-El/Akatosh. A third mantles... Magnus? I'm not entirely sure how that story is supposed to work.

One and One make Eleven. Could you tell the difference if the Ones traded places?

Personally, I think there is a certain amount of name similarity that points to which is which in the Talos construct. Tullius is similar to Talos, and thus he could be the historical "Talos" in this version of the story... and I am unaware of who "Talos" was, historically. Ulfric sounds, to me, a bit like Wulfharth, and both Ulfric and Wulfharth went to the Graybeards first... but were not The One. Meanwhile "Stormcloak" sounds like "Stormcrown", and contributes the second part of the name "Talos Stormcloak"... er, I mean "Tullius Stormcrown", er... you get my point. Hjalti is an entirely historical name, contributing no part of his given name to the Talos construct, and yet regarded by those devoted to more mundane historical account as the "real" Talos. 's name plays a similar role.

If Ulfric is the victor, that makes him the Shezarrine, leading his people to a New World (a post-Imperial Skyrim). However, if susequently manages to accomplish what so many players desperately wish they could do, that is kill Ulfric and take his throne from him, that individual mantles Akatosh.

Ulfric is Shezarrine in another way. He plays the role of one who defends an "original" kingship (that of Lorkhan/Shezarr/Wulfharth, who was the original Prince of Tamriel, at least according to Mankar Camoran) that was overthrown and replaced by that of an Anuic figure: Auri-El/Akatosh/Cyrodillic Emperor.

So in a semantic fashion, vilnii could be right: there is a difference between Tiber Septim and Wulfharth. However, both are names that contribute to a triune being that ultimately mantles the Original Battle between Anu and Padomay: the Enatiomorph.

So if tullius mantles tiber septium/akatosh/auri-el, ulfric mantles wulfharth/shezzar, then how does the dragonborn mantle zurin arctus/magnus?
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mollypop
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:04 am

It is that someone has to play Lorkhan's role in an enantimorph, either a mortal mantling Lorkhan/Shezarr/Shor/whatever aspect Lork has, or a Shezarrine him/herself, by birth or by mantling another Shezarrine. The same goes to Aka and the Observer, Magnus or Trinimac or any other except the mirror twins, who can observe the King-Rebel formula and fix the result.

In the enantimorph of Tullius, Ulfric and the dragonborn, Ulfric IS a rebel, and by that he is mantling Shezarr aka Lork. Tullius acts AS the King (as Elisif is anything but the true queen), so he is mantling Aka. At the end of the civil war quest line either the dragonborn kills one of them or they kills one another, but it really doesn't matter, as dragonborn acts as the Observer. Even if it is the dragonborn kills Tullius/Ulfric, he is in fact acting like Trinimac in the Altmeri myth: that who defeated Lorkhan and ripped his heart out was Trinimac, but it was still Auriel took the heart and became the King.

By that it seems to me that, even if the dragonborn never goes into the civil war, this perticular enantimorph is ALWAYS valid, as either Tullius or Ulfric could have his own Trinimac to fullfil the action (Rikke and Galma, and, Hadvar and Ralof), even we can insert Elisif to form a triune, if only we bring Elisif to the live duel between Tullius and Ulfric and let her watch to the end.
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JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:16 pm

To be clear again

Tiber Septim is NOT Wulfharth....he is also not Zurin Arctus


If he was the same individual as Tiber Septim, the Greybeards would not have told Wulfharth he is NOT the one, and then send him back from High Hrothgar


Tiber Septim is Hjatl the Dragonborn.

When Hjatl showed up, The undead Wulfharth had to pay him a visit to introduce himself and offer assistance


Wulfharth is a bona fide avatar of Lorkhan who got reassembled from his ashes after dying at Red Mountain


When I say Lorkhanic I mean it in the strict sense that Lorkhan has decided to act in the world and has chosen to take an avatar
Tiber Septim is Hjalti the Dragonborn. Who is also Cuchulain the warlord and Zurin Arctus, and one or more of them is also Wulfarth. Who are also all of humanity. Get your basic facts straight, dude, this is pretty basic stuff.

@Inglar: All game PCs spend their days roaming the wilderness, standing awkwardly close to people and asking about sensitive subjects before running, nay sprinting, into the wilderness again in order to slay monsters in caves. In full view of guards, they poke around in supply crates and barrels simply because they weren't told not to and take whatever they please, and often engage in horrifying merciless bloodbaths of entire bandit camps or civilian towns as it please them. Something is definitely not normal there.
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Ria dell
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:55 am

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Tullius and Ulfric mantling this and that god, when I haven't seen any evidence that either of them are mantling or are even likely to mantle anyone.
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Pete Schmitzer
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:11 am

They're not mantling gods, they're assuming roles. The three of us enact an Enantiomorph. Whether we become a god because of it is still, I think, a matter of debate, but the Dragonborn, at least, mantles Shor by fighting Ald.
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Theodore Walling
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:13 am

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Tullius and Ulfric mantling this and that god, when I haven't seen any evidence that either of them are mantling or are even likely to mantle anyone.

They're not mantling, well, only they are. Uh, they aren't individually mantling anyone but are doing the same enantinomorph-tango that made Talos. Look at the warrior/king dichotomy of the enantinomorph, plus the third person who is either or both observer and/or traitor. Ulfric and Tullius both fulfill the King and rebel roles depending on perspective, and the Dragonborn fulfills the third man. BY THEIR POWERS COMBINED, HE IS TALOS 2.0.
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elliot mudd
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:58 am

They're not mantling, well, only they are. Uh, they aren't individually mantling anyone but are doing the same enantinomorph-tango that made Talos. Look at the warrior/king dichotomy of the enantinomorph, plus the third person who is either or both observer and/or traitor. Ulfric and Tullius both fulfill the King and rebel roles depending on perspective, and the Dragonborn fulfills the third man. BY THEIR POWERS COMBINED, HE IS TALOS 2.0.

Well, the question is that, if the third one is not the dragonborn but another person, is this enantimorph still forming Talos 2.0? We do have a King and a Rebel and an Observer though.

Truly there are kings and rebels and observers everywhere as long as there is a rebellion. I think occuring on a Tower is neccesary?

And, if a triune has something from the god, dragonborn or shezarrine or something others, and on a Tower, is this enantimorph destined to froming Talos 2.0? Let's say, 1,a dragonborn/Shezarrine King with common Rebel and Observer; 2, a dragonborn/Shezarrine Rebel with common King and Observer; and 3, a dragonborn/Shezarrine Observer with common King and Rebel?

And in the case of Talos 1.0, weren't all three having something to do with the Et'Adas that Talos 1.0 was formed?
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Ash
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 am

Add to this that the Greybeards flat out say (in the dragon tongue speech) that you are assuming the Stormcrown. The Ghost of Old Hroldan calls you Hjalti. He is the Observer role in the original triad.

Again, the details are not clear. We can't be certain any enantinomorph-ing is occurring until someone flat out says so. But the events of Skyrim certainly... 'walk like them', even if they don't 'walk like you' quite yet (we've got the setup, even if not full ascension/mantling/etc. We'll see).
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Nicole Coucopoulos
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:48 pm

Add to this that the Greybeards flat out say (in the dragon tongue speech) that you are assuming the Stormcrown. The Ghost of Old Hroldan calls you Hjalti. He is the Observer role in the original triad.

Again, the details are not clear. We can't be certain any enantinomorph-ing is occurring until someone flat out says so. But the events of Skyrim certainly... 'walk like them', even if they don't 'walk like you' quite yet (we've got the setup, even if not full ascension/mantling/etc. We'll see).

Hjalti is the King. Zurin Arctus is the Observer (and the sword/tool of the King)

The Greybeards and the Ghost of Hroldan are more likely talking about Hjalti is a dragonborn so the player is like Hjalti. Remember to most people of Tamriel Talos the god equals Talos the man equals Hjalti, and the Arctusian Heresy is only a Heresy to them.

If the triune (whichever) all succeed mantling something then a Talos 2.0 is really really possible. But as the enantimorph is only about the role...too much uncertainty. With a single dragonborn in the triune a Reman-like figure is more likely to appear. And if a dragonborn becomes a Shezarrine through mantling Shor, is this dragon-Shezarrine equals Hjalti plus Wulfharth?

P.S: And do we really think the dragonborn succeeds in mantling Shor? Can a single act as killing Alduin in Sovngarde decide Shor has walked like the player? Not all dragonborn are elf-haters after all, and Trinimac instead of Auriel can also rip Lorkhan apart. (Alduin's not dead and his soul doesn't come to the player...And we only see Tsun, not his brother Stuhn.)
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Darlene Delk
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:32 am

Each time is a little different. It's not "besting Alduin" that matters, it's the attempt, standing between Alduin/Akatosh and uncreation. I cannot and never will attempt without permission to speak for 'we" but I certainly believe that in the end the Dragonborn has done so, even if only for that time a-la Cyrus Hoon Ding Redguard.
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Phoenix Draven
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:03 pm

dragonborn becomes a Shezarrine through mantling Shor, is this dragon-Shezarrine equals Hjalti plus Wulfharth?

inb4 the DB mantles Magnus over the course of Dawnguard and becomes the entire enatiomorph. Then he betrays himself by ripping his own heart out, while also observing himself in the mirror to become Talos2.

/thread
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Far'ed K.G.h.m
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:40 am

OR, he fades into time like the Eternal Champion and the Agent, yep.
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Tessa Mullins
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:15 pm

Each time is a little different. It's not "besting Alduin" that matters, it's the attempt, standing between Alduin/Akatosh and uncreation. I cannot and never will attempt without permission to speak for 'we" but I certainly believe that in the end the Dragonborn has done so, even if only for that time a-la Cyrus Hoon Ding Redguard.

Standing against Alduin, Shor's deed, as the original Alduin is meaningless in a myth without Shor, other myths have their own dragon ascpects.
Standing against Alduin, Akatosh's deed, as Alduin brings end of time and Akatosh is time of present, and to King Akatosh Alduin is playing the Rebel as Alduin wants to become the King.
Standing against creation-reversing, Talos' deed, as Talos is the one that bound Mundus to the hub of Wheel and fortifies Mundus.

And Alduin doesn't equal to creation reversing, as Alduin brings an end with a new creation follows, and the cycle of kalpa continues. Creation reversing is to resolve all the possibility of all kalpas, and Alduin is no ally to the Thalmor.

Can we say the player is mantling Akatosh or his champion by defeating Alduin? Or we can gather Shor and Akatosh into Talos who of course has bound Akatosh and Lorkhan together in the Wheel? Or in fact the player is acting as Champion of Talos?
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Sophie Miller
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:11 am

Standing against Alduin, Shor's deed, as the original Alduin is meaningless in a myth without Shor, other myths have their own dragon ascpects.
Standing against Alduin, Akatosh's deed, as Alduin brings end of time and Akatosh is time of present, and to King Akatosh Alduin is playing the Rebel as Alduin wants to become the King.
Standing against creation-reversing, Talos' deed, as Talos is the one that bound Mundus to the hub of Wheel and fortifies Mundus.

And Alduin doesn't equal to creation reversing, as Alduin brings an end with a new creation follows, and the cycle of kalpa continues. Creation reversing is to resolve all the possibility of all kalpas, and Alduin is no ally to the Thalmor.

Can we say the player is mantling Akatosh or his champion by defeating Alduin? Or we can gather Shor and Akatosh into Talos who of course has bound Akatosh and Lorkhan together in the Wheel? Or in fact the player is acting as Champion of Talos?

Bugger-all, do what you want. I tend to say Dragonborn is filling the Talos-shaped, and therefore Lorkhan-shaped, hole in creation that the Thalmor are making.
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Kayleigh Mcneil
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:36 am

Ulfric "shouted [Torygg] to pieces," and the Greywind settled again, west of Helgen.

When king Balgruuf relented to our thu'um, he was unmasked a dragon - and a traitor to Alduin. Our submissive jarl caged his personality, for the lives of his children. Irileth from the Tong, possibly the Night Mother and proxy of Mephala, killed him through his (their?) children, when Balgruuf used the name Ysmir (when we became his thane) and exposed his draconic face: Odahviing.

He had waited from Dragonsreach, imprisoned between Solitude and Windhelm. There was more behind his choice against Ulfric than mere kings etiquette.
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StunnaLiike FiiFii
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:18 pm

That may be true or not. Alduin says that, but at the same time, Alduin was a dragon god of time before Akatosh was invented. Of course, if the theory that dragons can't remember split timelines, that would make sense that Alduin doesn't remember existing before Akatosh.

Akatosh is Borhamu. Borhamu existed before Alduin.
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joannARRGH
 
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Post » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:25 pm

Akatosh is Borhamu. Borhamu existed before Alduin.
After an extended period of not having existed at all because Bormahu seems to be Alessian Akatosh crossed with Aka-Tusk. So he was created after Alduin yet existed before. Pretty simple.
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vanuza
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:55 am

Parthurnaax says Alduin is the first creation of Borhamu. Akatosh/Auri-El would be dumbed down versions of Borhamu.
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Nice one
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:45 am

First of creation, or when Time took his first name?
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:10 am

Well dragons are more closely related to the time dragon than anybody else so their version should be the most true.
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Laura Tempel
 
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