EDIT: It's fair to say that this has been disproven. Being Dovakhiin is not about drawing on the power of Talos, but rather having power equal to his. I'm happy, this is 1,000% more awesome.

I'm sure this has already been brought up somewhere, but I was looking through the lore of TES on UESP (The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages) and found an interesting tidbit that I think has a great deal to do with Skyrim:

Skyrim was absorbed comparatively peacefully in the empire of Tiber Septim, the Battle of Sancre Tor and other clashes notwithstanding. Many Nords found employment in the Imperial Legion, as Talos generally nurtured relations with the north. In the centuries after the Empire's founding Skyrim was drawn in several major conflicts. One of these was the War of the Red Diamond wherein Skyrim sided with Queen Potema against the Empire. The civil war tore the Empire apart and it would take seventeen long years before Potema was finally defeated. As a result of this war there is a strong underground movement called the Horme that believes Potema and her deposed son of Uriel III to be the last of Tiber Septim's true blood and under that principle lead raids against Imperial interests in the province.

This information is taken from UESPWiki.

What does everybody think? Is this the heir of the Potema/Septim bloodline? Are we going to be assisted by both the Greybeards and the Horme faction? I think this is a perfect fit.

Interesting stuff, don't know enough about it. Does the timeline fit?

1. OB already proved that Martin and his heirs were Tiber's true blood
2. If you think that Dovakhiin is heir of Potema, then the answer is no. Dovakhiin's can be of any race and since we can choose a race we can't have a Nordic ancestor. Septims were just the most famous Dragonborn family, but not the only one
3. It has been confirmed that we will be assisted by Graybeards. We don't know if Horme will be there but I do hope they play some role

As far as i remember that branch http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Uriel_Septim_III#Uriel_Septim_III long ago :flamethrower:
do you get that little one

yeh it has been 200 years since the last septim that is why the empire is crumbling
Dragonborn doesn't necessarily have to be from the septim dynasty he just has dragon blood in him

It's good to speculate on this stuff,and it's interesting to see people's views on it,especially those that know the lore.
I have just started to get more interested in the lore,but i find some of it hard to take in ( but i think thats because i'm trying to take in too much too fast )
But i find it really interesting.
To the OP this is a thread from cipher 8 called : "The story behind skyrim".
It's a very long post,but i found it an exellent read....infact it got me more interested in the lore.
Anyway here's a link incase you have not read it,and wish to do so
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1152130-the-story-behind-skyrim-v20/

Dragonborn is more about being the chosen (by the gods) rather than being born into power (blood related).

Is it? The entire Septim line was Dragonborn by bloodline.

Not really. By the time of the 3rd or 4th emperor, it was Tiber's brother's bloodline, not Tiber's direct line.

Hmm, I don't know if I would consider anyone other than Tiber Septim a True Dovakhiin". I've heard that his sons have used the voice but greybeards can also do the same just not at the level the Dovakhiin can use it. The fact they say the Dovakhiin is anointed by the gods however is confirmed.

They were, which suggest that it WAS inheritable by blood. It ALSO is indicated by the fact that Tiber Septim's direct bloodline died with his son Pelagius (no, not THAT Pelagius). Afterwards, his brother's children became the line of Emperors that stood to that day.

Keep in mind, though, that while that line was Dragonborn, there were also several Emperors of questionable blood. Hell, after the death of Pelagius the Mad (not the one above), his Dark Elven wife served as Empress. She was most certainly NOT descended from Tiber or his brother.

Blood isn't the only kind of blood in TES. Everything answers to concepts that are very great. Direct descent isn't the only requirement of being Dragonborn.

It is my sincere hope that nobody indicates to the player that they are Dragonborn. I want it to be a surprise to everybody, not just my character. If everybody knows but you, that would break my immersion.

The thought of this... You know what, this makes the whole Dovakhiin concept MUCH more exciting than it was before I thought of this. In other words, being Dragonborn doesn't put you on the same level as the leader of the empire, but with the FOUNDER of the empire. You're a god, just like in Morrowind. Equal in power to the Nine Divines.

...I... I love this. This is awesome.

Yep.. pretty much...

Talos, Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn
Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. One of the Nine Divines, the major gods of Tamriel. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult have been inspired by his apotheosis.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Talos#Talos

Dragonborn is not a hereditary lineage, it just corresponded to one while the Septims held the Amulet of Kings and lit the Dragonfires.

Mankar Camoran was Dragonborn. Alessia was the first. Reman was another. None of these people share family trees.


All evidence points to the irrelevancy of family ties. Remember that each new Septim emperor, whether bastard, in-law or Dark Elf, was crowned in the Dragonfires ceremony. This binds their very soul into the line of Cyrodiilic rulers. The Amulet of Kings was one big soul gem, in a way. They became family.

I kind of got the impression that it was by bloodlines. Those bloodlines were chosen early on in Nirn's history. While one of those bloodlines, the Septims, rose to prominance, the others continued on. Over time, though, those bloodlines have dwindled and ceased. That's why you're one of the last Dragonborn. Your bloodline is one of the only ones remaining.

I would imagine that with the banishment of the dragons, most of the bloodlines fell into obscurity. That's why the realization that you are a Dragonborn is so sudden and important.

I don't think Makar, Alessia, or Reman were Dragonborn but rather like Septims dynasty had traces of Dragonborn in there background.

Like Greek Mythology if Zues and Hera would procreate they could create a god however if a god procreated with a human you would have a Demigod so in a sense a Dragonborn would be a Demigod and if a Demigod procreated you would have something like Achilles or in my mind a "Dovahkiin Decendent". So I basically see Mankar, Allessia, and Reman as Heroic symbols that of Achilles (Septim Dynasty) and I see the Dragonborn being that of Hercules God of Heroes.

This is just wicked...how thay are changing the plotline totally from the early ES games...I mean that there is no more Septim Dynasty. I can't wait to see what happens in SKYRIM!

Martin disproves that entire paragraph. He was vital because he was a blood relative of Uriel Septim. If it was as you said, then anyone would have done.

Why can't your Character have mixed blood from other races. Mummy was a giant lizard and daddy was a viking king style.



I get the feeling that this Esbern character knows your true power and has been following you. Maybe not, it could be a surprise to him as well but for the last of the blades to be in the right place at the right time (i e Skyrim) is pretty convenient no?

OH NO! I deleted my super-huge response to this by navigating away from the page looking for that silly HarryPartridge video. ;_;

I'll just write a quick synopsis of my initial response: AMAZING. I read through all of that, the links provided, the links to other pages on the links provided pages... It took me over an hour.

I'm happy to finally be absorbing all of this information. I've learned so much about TES universe since signing up here a few days ago. Especially regarding Lorkhan, I always thought he was just some sort of god/leader of the Dwemer. My interpretation of Morrowind was fairly limited, considering it was my first Elder Scrolls game and I completed it in early high-school.

What's the point of even speculating at this point? My mind can't even handle the awesomeness. Here I thought I would be able to make some sort of suggestion that might influence the forums, and thus Bethesda, and thus Skyrim... But there's almost too much here for me to absorb. Awesome. I like walking into a situation feeling confident and walking away feeling like my head is going to explode.

I don't know why I've wasted so much time hypothesizing on the story behind the Metal Gear Solid universe... This makes that look like the story of Super Mario Bros. I can't even think of any fictional universe to compare this to, it's like LOTR with an extra 20 generations of history behind it (as well as a mythological history that makes Greeks look like monotheists.) :shocking:

Amazing, awesome, and I think I'm just going to sit down and shut up now. I'm just counting on Bethesda to create an immersive gaming experience at this point. The story is there, but how the story is told is of utmost importance. Either way, I know I am going to love this game.

Says who? Maybe anyone could have done. Mankar wore the Amulet and he was no relative of Uriel. Martin was not the only candidate.

Martin was a great man and powerful magic user, with a strong will and faith in his god. Uriel was not descended from Talos. Akatosh would have chosen Martin regardless.



No, see, Bethesda haven't actually told us what Dragonborn means. So far, it is simply a reference to those who embody and uphold the Covenant with Akatosh/Shezarr. If they retcon it into some sort of genetic trait, it will ruin what little continuity Cyrodiil has left and be lame at the same time.

Alessia was essentially the first, prototypical Dragonborn. She joined her blood with Akatosh, and all her heirs and symbolic heirs (Reman, Talos) were entitled to wear the Amulet of Kings. But apparently people of great power and force of will can also wear the Amulet. Since the Player is always special, he/she is Dragonborn. Or maybe we are chosen by the gods. Skyrim invents the story that the dragons were here before, so there must have been a Dragonborn before Alessia. That person was either chosen or fought their way to greatness like Talos. And in the end a combination of the two.

They are quite explicit in the game that it is because he is the son of the emperor. Not because Akatosh chose him or anything. It was his lineage that mattered.

To emphasize, Tiber's and therefore Talos's bloodline ended after the 2nd or 3rd emperor, and became inherited by Tiber's brother's children. From there, it fragmented further away from Tiber's direct bloodline.

It's not genetic, otherwise there would only have been 3 outcomes to Daggerfall, concerning the Totem of Tiber Septim: one ending where you have it (still winding up dead), Uriel has it, or the Underking has it. Yet, we end up with 8; the rulers of Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel and Orsinium, Blades, Underking, Mannimarco, and the PC (you die in this ending).

That's what they say.That's what the Empire's propaganda for simple minds says. Mankar's ability to wear the Amulet should cast a whole bucketload of doubt on the matter.

The Covenant has been broken by weak and faithless rulers before. If Martin was not worthy, he would not have been able to wear the Amulet, at least not without the Dragonfires ritual that binds any old inbred blueblood into the Oversoul of Emperors.

Mankar wanted to destroy the world, yet he could wear it.


So whatever qualities Talos possessed were not passed on for more than a generation. That's not a bloodline, because Talos inherited nothing. He obtained his 'bloodline.' He and his brother didn't get it from their mother. But the Covenant allows for dynasty. People like Pelagius can be shoehorned in.

And if the line of emperors continued through Tiber's brother... well, they are both of the same bloodline. If Tiber was a Dragonborn, his brother was, too.